tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post180269544541602221..comments2024-03-28T17:39:34.611-04:00Comments on Jungle Red Writers: Writing between the lines with Elizabeth Lyon: Subtext!Jungle Red Writershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16646429819267618412noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-9626372229900149982013-07-17T12:50:45.145-04:002013-07-17T12:50:45.145-04:00I too am an Elizabeth Lyon fan. Loved this discuss...I too am an Elizabeth Lyon fan. Loved this discussion about writing between the lines. I think of subtext as what actors would hint at in their interpretation of what is happening. Suggested but not in the script.Patricia L. Morrishttp://patricialmorris.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-88429029116268450902013-07-17T07:01:29.530-04:002013-07-17T07:01:29.530-04:00So grateful -
to JRW, Elizabeth Lyon & Lucy Bu...So grateful -<br />to JRW, Elizabeth Lyon & Lucy Burdette, for the Tuesday head's up on the listserve & then this post. It was like a grad. school seminar. It has sent me into a writing frenzy that continues I want to reread the entire stream some much more.<br /><br />Yes! -- my character I posted is only related to the astronaut through marriage of a niece. And the niece is by marriage, also. Elizabeth's analysis of the mother's psyche is spot-on. Elizabeth is Claire Voyant! She is also a ginormous new resource to me.<br />Those of you who already know her, thank you so much for sharing her with unknowing ones.<br /><br />My word-o-meter & I are hugely appreciative.<br /><br />I also like (this is Wed. a.m) being able to read all the subsequent examples & comments as I didn't return Tues. <br /><br />I have been ashamedly like the poster who was King of First Chapters, always a new one under my belt, but with this encouragement, I think I know which middle grade mystery in the making, to stick with. If it becomes a finished manuscript, it will mainly be because of yesterday's exercise. Thanks some much more.<br /><br />here was the post:<br /><br />"Elizabeth Lyon said...<br />Jan, hello, your example:<br /><br />"When we pulled into the space center parking lot Mom said, “Because we’re related to Buzz Aldrin, I’m going to ask for a discount.”<br /><br />Ha! Very good subtext about this character. She's opportunistic, may see herself as more important than she really is, perhaps competitive, and manipulative--seeking a discount by a relationship that may or may not be real. Deeper: I suspect she's insecure and deeper still, I bet there is resentment--even if she is his second cousin twice removed."<br /><br />best regards,<br />Janjan godown anninohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00091996699597066230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-74292445116726400062013-07-16T21:12:49.862-04:002013-07-16T21:12:49.862-04:00Is this a record # of posts? So very interesting....Is this a record # of posts? So very interesting. I am sorry to be late to the party.Denise Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02790883493798517829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-67874769855883992582013-07-16T20:26:04.122-04:002013-07-16T20:26:04.122-04:00I'll sure head out and pick this one up! Thank...I'll sure head out and pick this one up! Thanks Elizabeth and Hallie!PJ Nunnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05968119284170006565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-2966502712012154572013-07-16T19:38:02.310-04:002013-07-16T19:38:02.310-04:00I have been thinking about this ALL DAY!! Thank yo...I have been thinking about this ALL DAY!! Thank you, Elizabeth!<br /><br />(And SUe Grafton is a MASTER at this..I have been trying to figure out why her books work so well..and I think that's the answer!)Hank Phillippi Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17420701704169428286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-3659710345806787402013-07-16T18:43:51.954-04:002013-07-16T18:43:51.954-04:00THANK YOU, HALLIE, and JUNGLE RED WRITERS!
THANK YOU, HALLIE, and JUNGLE RED WRITERS! <br /><br />Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-79039878414996473842013-07-16T18:41:46.541-04:002013-07-16T18:41:46.541-04:00Figuring out foreshadowing from subtext.
On the ...Figuring out foreshadowing from subtext. <br /><br />On the surface (pun intended), these two techniques appear the same. Both allude to something going on that creates tension, suspense, and puts the reader on alert. Both give the reader a specific object, mood, action, etc., to allow them to speculate. Only time will bear out if what suspicions are confirmed.<br /><br />What turns foreshadowing into subtext is when, borrowing from your examples, the weather is turbulent AND the protagonist's life is and the character growth relates to dealing with that turbulence. <br /><br />When body language and the personality conveyed in dialogue makes the reader think the woman is sitting pretty behind the facade of the submissive wife, it becomes subtext when he is knocked off his pompous ass by a stroke that puts her in the power position because he can't talk, can't walk, and she has to decide to be pompous, dictatorial, or change. Then the theme of the book and the subtext might shift to the struggle for revenge against the value of compassion.<br /><br />Not all action and therefore by far not all foreshadowing can or should link to theme and character, and subtext related to them. But to the extent that you can find opportunities to enhance plot and the character arc with subtext here and subtext there, the unity and power of the book will be greater. <br /><br />For more specific examples, well, they are in Writing Subtext. Also, read your favorite authors and identify subtext. Then you can write it more easily.<br /><br />I've never been accused of being short-winded. Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-6922342779368032012013-07-16T18:28:38.965-04:002013-07-16T18:28:38.965-04:00Thanks EVERYONE! Elizabeth is packing up her blue ...Thanks EVERYONE! Elizabeth is packing up her blue pencil and calling it a day. Tune in tomorrow to find out who wins a copy of Elizabeth Lyon's Subtext.Hallie Ephronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04759439029582054503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-45691136024732085182013-07-16T18:27:36.557-04:002013-07-16T18:27:36.557-04:00Hi Marilyn. Thanks for the added information that ...Hi Marilyn. Thanks for the added information that the woman character is perceived as submissive and is overshadowed by a pompous husband. Your example:<br /><br />“Smile pretty, come when they call, and you can get away with just about anything when they aren’t looking.” <br /><br />Love this line, so full of characterization. If you've preceded this character revelation with scenes that show her being submissive to the pompous husband, with hints that she may not entirely be a victim, then those scenes would be subtext-laden. This statement, however, is text. The reader who suspects as much will now have suspicions confirmed. She's in control and has the formula worked out to get her needs and desires met. <br /><br />I'll do another post on foreshadow versus subtext. Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-27642495319599943662013-07-16T18:02:12.716-04:002013-07-16T18:02:12.716-04:00Thanks, Elizabeth. This has been wonderful. I'...Thanks, Elizabeth. This has been wonderful. I'm not sure I get the difference yet between subtext and foreshadowing. But I'm learning a lot reading the excerpts and your comments. <br /><br />Here is my excerpt from my WIP, said by a woman character who is perceived as submissive and overshadowed by her pompous husband. <br /><br />“Smile pretty, come when they call, and you can get away with just about anything when they aren’t looking.” <br /><br />Thanks. <br />Marilyn Pattersonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-66720679634651920242013-07-16T16:32:43.975-04:002013-07-16T16:32:43.975-04:00Hi Lara. Your example:
“Hi,” she stammered. Hi? W...Hi Lara. Your example:<br /><br />“Hi,” she stammered. Hi? Was that the best she could do?<br />He grinned. “I’ve been waiting for you to come up.”<br />She blushed. Her eyes were on his thumb rings. <br /><br />Elizabeth: Beginning with "stammered" the reader knows the woman is uncomfortable. The question raised is: Is she shy or embarrassed or what? When you add "Is that the best she could do," it's clear that the embarrassment's source is wanting to impress. When he grins and expresses his hope that she would come up, mutual sexual attraction is clear--I think text more than subtext. <br /><br />There may be what I call "subtext lite" only in the lingering question how they'll hook up.Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-86967364364018335142013-07-16T16:20:48.254-04:002013-07-16T16:20:48.254-04:00Rhonda's question: I love subtext because I be...Rhonda's question: I love subtext because I believe it lets readers guess for a while and enhances the experience. Is it possible, though, to wear readers out with too much subtext? <br /><br />Elizabeth: If too much is left out, for the reader it can be like watching micro second images blinking past too rapidly. Or leading the reader to struggle to supply subtext that proves to be wrong and they are forced to go back to Go and try again. In other words, confusion. <br /><br />If done well, subtext in great quantity and infuse a story with so much emotional power that the reader remembers that story forever and it likely survives the author. For Writing Subtext, I read Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men," novella length. It's a master work of subtext.<br /><br />For the rest of us aspiring to just write a good story, one key in revision is not to force it, not to jam subtext in with overwrought imagery, unnatural gaps in dialogue (talking heads), slowed pace. Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-6006282101263565102013-07-16T16:12:31.626-04:002013-07-16T16:12:31.626-04:00David--love your novel. Your example:
Joe Simpson...David--love your novel. Your example:<br /><br />Joe Simpson’s last minutes were filled with ocean breezes, the calls of herring gulls, and the smell of newly mowed grass. <br /><br />Elizabeth: Yes, a great hook that doesn't make the mistake of adding "thud." Is it subtext? The reader is asked to keep up--"last minutes," oh, of life--and then the images put us right there in his body with what he feels and hears. We're there." Perhaps it is subtle subtext if the reader doesn't quite get "last minutes" and the confirmation is the shock of contact with the grass. Subtle, David!Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-52097844423036083752013-07-16T16:01:58.166-04:002013-07-16T16:01:58.166-04:00Hi Elizabeth,
Here's my thirty words. Can'...Hi Elizabeth, <br />Here's my thirty words. Can't wait for your feedback. I'm also super excited about reading your book. <br />“Hi,” she stammered. Hi? Was that the best she could do?<br />He grinned. “I’ve been waiting for you to come up.” <br />She blushed. Her eyes were on his thumb rings. <br /><br />Regards, <br />Lara <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14194148952574703593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-55343608498506882612013-07-16T15:57:17.983-04:002013-07-16T15:57:17.983-04:00Thank you, Elizabeth. The sample showing the worri...Thank you, Elizabeth. The sample showing the worried woman fiddling with the curtains precedes a sequence in which my reporter viewpoint character feels remorse and then shows kindness that isn't part of her job. <br /><br />I love subtext because I believe it lets readers guess for a while and enhances the experience. Is it possible, though, to wear readers out with too much subtext? <br />Rhonda Lanehttp://www.thehorseyset.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-40674805378884317342013-07-16T15:49:31.549-04:002013-07-16T15:49:31.549-04:00Elizabeth: Hi from a fan. My example of subtext i...Elizabeth: Hi from a fan. My example of subtext is the first line of my novel, On the Level. <br /><br />Joe Simpson’s last minutes were filled with ocean breezes, the calls of herring gulls, and the smell of newly mowed grass. <br /><br />I nearly added "on earth" as the fifth and sixth words, but thought that might be too obvious. <br /><br />DavidDavid E Cournoyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-19799967178220722062013-07-16T15:30:15.783-04:002013-07-16T15:30:15.783-04:00Thanks for the clarification, Elizabeth!!!Thanks for the clarification, Elizabeth!!!Nancy Gardnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-26081635558618210282013-07-16T14:48:39.089-04:002013-07-16T14:48:39.089-04:00Mike--thanks for the compliments. I think I learne...Mike--thanks for the compliments. I think I learned more than you guys in the critique group. We were growing together in knowledge of craft and skill way back then. O King of First Chapters, will they come as they are or will they be doctored? I'd like as conceived.<br /><br />For the record, it was Kick-ass Carolyn's brilliant idea to *make me* write this booklet on subtext. Thanks are eternal.Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-64847692847885459762013-07-16T14:45:08.399-04:002013-07-16T14:45:08.399-04:00Thanks, Elizabeth.
"I was determined not...Thanks, Elizabeth.<br /><br /> "I was determined not to look up and see him tip his hat to me with a crook of his mouth the way he always did. Friends. Oh, yeah."<br /><br />Elizabeth said: "I like the punch with "Friends. Oh Yeah" but as subtext, the prior sentence stays a bit more veiled. If you followed with yet another action, or dialogue that conveyed her disappointment and disdain by what she doesn't and does say, then I think the passage would be stronger without the last two words of "telling."<br /><br /> "On the other hand, because they convey voice and punch, they might fit better after the reader is kept guessing a little longer. There is more suspense in the first sentence alone.<br /><br /> "And now, boy am I getting picky. Just by way of example. Good subtext, Linda."<br /><br />I think you're right. I want to show attraction that my main character is trying to fight and deny, even to herself, so this might be better without those last words, even though they're true to Skeet's attitude and voice. Thanks.<br /><br /> <br /> <br />Linda Rodriguezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11913741596693442469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-61170245007312394832013-07-16T14:42:41.157-04:002013-07-16T14:42:41.157-04:00Rhonda--yes!
“Oh.” Past her wire rims, her brow w...Rhonda--yes!<br /><br />“Oh.” Past her wire rims, her brow wrinkled. Her fingers fiddled with the hem of the lace curtains. “This will be in the paper?” <br /><br />Elizabeth: The "body language" conveys the subtext perfectly. She's worried, anxious. Because I'm in my picky mode--and you have the word-limit disadvantage, what I would have you do after this dialogue is "open it up." <br /><br />Through your POV character here, add narration, a fat paragraph, and that will characterize her even more and him. Her behavior here might be followed by more that reveals even more upset; thus building greater suspense.Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-37765680123420198532013-07-16T14:37:13.606-04:002013-07-16T14:37:13.606-04:00Linda--hello. Your example:
"I was determine...Linda--hello. Your example:<br /><br />"I was determined not to look up and see him tip his hat to me with a crook of his mouth the way he always did. Friends. Oh, yeah."<br /><br />I like the punch with "Friends. Oh Yeah" but as subtext, the prior sentence stays a bit more veiled. If you followed with yet another action, or dialogue that conveyed her disappointment and disdain by what she doesn't and does say, then I think the passage would be stronger without the last two words of "telling." <br /><br />On the other hand, because they convey voice and punch, they might fit better after the reader is kept guessing a little longer. There is more suspense in the first sentence alone.<br /><br />And now, boy am I getting picky. Just by way of example. Good subtext, Linda.Elizabeth Lyonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-59377900099222386172013-07-16T14:35:59.402-04:002013-07-16T14:35:59.402-04:00Elizabeth is a long time friend and an early mento...Elizabeth is a long time friend and an early mentor of my wife Carolyn Rose and me. I can remember her encouragement in our Eugene, Oregon writer's groups where I became known as "The King of First Chapters." Seems like I had a new book underway each week. But with her positive feedback and sharing of knowledge (plus a little loving ass-kicking from my wife) I have been able to finish books. Look for my newest collection "First Chapters I Have Written" due out as a Kindle download sometime soon.Deadly Duo, Duh Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15279307709534348681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-37203488710604361422013-07-16T14:27:31.369-04:002013-07-16T14:27:31.369-04:00Found one! :) Yay! I didn't even have to hunt ...Found one! :) Yay! I didn't even have to hunt for it, either. It just came up while I was working. <br /><br />“Oh.” Past her wire rims, her brow wrinkled. Her fingers fiddled with the hem of the lace curtains. “This will be in the paper?” Rhonda Lanehttp://www.thehorseyset.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-27400851880994791892013-07-16T14:18:15.844-04:002013-07-16T14:18:15.844-04:00Elizabeth, thank you! SO much better (of course).Elizabeth, thank you! SO much better (of course).Edith Maxwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01388006370860482509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-23748422398368171182013-07-16T14:02:39.772-04:002013-07-16T14:02:39.772-04:00Fascinating post, Elizabeth! And the comments and ...Fascinating post, Elizabeth! And the comments and examples/explications are great!<br /><br />I'll give it a try with a piece of my WIP.<br /><br />"I was determined not to look up and see him tip his hat to me with a crook of his mouth the way he always did. Friends. Oh, yeah."<br /><br />Thanks!<br />Linda Rodriguezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11913741596693442469noreply@blogger.com