tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post301478589582884742..comments2024-03-28T23:05:51.705-04:00Comments on Jungle Red Writers: Choosing a Point of ViewJungle Red Writershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16646429819267618412noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-24165830155003485682009-06-23T19:40:43.808-04:002009-06-23T19:40:43.808-04:00I really like the third person where you're in...I really like the third person where you're in the head/on the shoulder of one person per scene, usually the person who begins the scene. I think that's subjective third person. I'm trying to write in it, but not always succeeding.<br /><br />Because I'm trying to avoid putting in something that's almost first person narration into a third person manuscript, there are times when I have pointlessly avoided saying what a person thinks. I think this might be an error. On the other hand, when I do that, I tend to describe the action instead of the reaction. If I work it right, it could end up being a way to "show, don't tell".<br /><br />Or I'm full of crap. I don't know...<br /><br />TELL NO ONE is in first person when the hero is in the scene, and third when he is not. It works, but I'll bet writers who do not have Harlan Coben's skill might not be able to pull it off.John Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-35692680132064162882009-06-22T23:32:11.186-04:002009-06-22T23:32:11.186-04:00Sheila asks if there's a limit on how many vie...Sheila asks if there's a limit on how many viewpoints a novel can sustain...and there really isn't. Doesn't the Da Vinci Code have five of six? What matters to me is that there's a main story line that's moving forward, and that there's a protagonist, a character for the reader to root for.Hallie Ephronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04759439029582054503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-178029120929576282009-06-22T21:20:43.735-04:002009-06-22T21:20:43.735-04:00Sometimes I think a shifting point of view bothers...Sometimes I think a shifting point of view bothers we writers a lot more than it does pure readers. My book group never seems to notice it. And heavens knows great writers of the 18th and early 19th century used to do it all the time.<br /><br />I think Roberta hit the nail on the head though -- if the story is flowing, you don't even notice the point of view. <br /><br />~janJungle Red Writershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16646429819267618412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-78820840406835287302009-06-22T17:31:23.226-04:002009-06-22T17:31:23.226-04:00Oh, my husband has read all of the Patrick O'B...Oh, my husband has read all of the Patrick O'Brian books, too! (I just don't see it...)<br /><br />But of course, I loved Master and Commander.<br /><br />And yeah, Rhys-y. (Hank standing hands on hips.) But you know--isn't that the little secret? How difficult it is these days to just--read?Hank Phillippi Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17420701704169428286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-41780184048997815652009-06-22T15:32:18.578-04:002009-06-22T15:32:18.578-04:00My two series are written in the first person, but...My two series are written in the first person, but I've written in third as well. I'm comfortable in first, but third allows for so much more storytelling.Karen Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05867709664100997228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-81741157157748626992009-06-22T14:13:28.010-04:002009-06-22T14:13:28.010-04:00Great topic. Does anyone know if there's an un...Great topic. Does anyone know if there's an unspoken limit on how many points of view are allowed?Sheila Deethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13465615546936319164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-20197461192365806462009-06-22T13:11:36.380-04:002009-06-22T13:11:36.380-04:00Yep, that's the O'Brian, Roberta, though I...Yep, that's the O'Brian, Roberta, though I don't think he's writes well for listening. I know O'Brian enthusiasts who are rabid book-on-tape followers of his work -- particularly as read by Patrick Tull -- but for me he's all about the intimate read. Sentences are too long and complex for listenability. But that's just me.<br /><br />O'Brian was a smart, smart writer with strong roots in the 19th-Century literary form, and probably the most brilliant dialogue I've ever read.<br /><br />One strategic sidebar to his inclusion of journal entries and letters in 1st person -- he gets away with a shocking lot of telling rather than showing this way, but since the telling is heavily influenced by the character doing the writing, what we're shown is a deep insight into the character, even while events are being told, compressed and not shown as play-by-play. So O'Brian gets away with all that telling, creating a deeper connection to the characters involved. And he needs to get away with it. That 20-volume Aubrey/Maturin canon spans years and years.Susannah Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04660387525544941776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-73171198903347648732009-06-22T12:21:42.442-04:002009-06-22T12:21:42.442-04:00I think that "if only she'd known what wa...I think that "if only she'd known what was coming..." trick is almost always unnecessary and assumes the reader is dumber than necessary:)<br /><br />Sheila, funny you mention your first person coming out snarkier than third!<br /><br />Oh my gosh, Susannah, you mean Patrick O'Brian of sea captain fame? My hub adores those books but we had one on tape for a drive a few years back and I very nearly fell asleep at the wheel. Though I like your description of how he brings first person into a book.Lucy Burdette aka Roberta Isleibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04660402177299546055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-58724673537238564742009-06-22T11:32:51.195-04:002009-06-22T11:32:51.195-04:00Whoops, sorry Hank. I haven't had a chance to ...Whoops, sorry Hank. I haven't had a chance to read one of your books yet--I hardly ever get a chance to read these days as I can't read when I write and I am writing all the time. <br />My peeve about present tense is that often these books come across as contrived. Yours, I know, will be brilliant. Hey, it won the Agatha. Enough said.<br />And I promise I'll get to the first one soon.Rhys Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663634889908752121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-77060229148330569182009-06-22T10:18:02.021-04:002009-06-22T10:18:02.021-04:00I prefer to write in 3rd, but don't mind readi...I prefer to write in 3rd, but don't mind reading in first. It's tense more than person that will bug me -- I've had trouble getting into a 1st person present unless it's masterfully done. I feel alienated, as if I'm on the outside, for some reason. Deep third doesn't do that.<br /><br />And I really don't like omniscient -- pulls me right out of the story almost every time, especially when it's something like, "If she'd known then what that action would cause", etc., etc. <br /><br />In a mystery, I prefer a single POV -- or at least no villain. Knowing what's going to happen, or what has already happened, makes it a suspense and takes the puzzle solving out of it.<br /><br />My first books were romantic suspense, so the two character POV was virtually "required." And I agree, trying to decide how to choose POV, or even more troubling, how to handle things when the characters were apart, because that gave the reader information the other character didn't have, and the real challenge was the timing. How do you play 'catch up' when important things go on for each character at the same time.<br /><br />My current WIP was going to be RS, but it's turning out to be a mystery, and now I have 3 POV characters. Still no villain, though.Terry Odellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610682530545306687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-76374510842675113932009-06-22T10:13:51.150-04:002009-06-22T10:13:51.150-04:00I'm so glad you brought up this topic, Roberta...I'm so glad you brought up this topic, Roberta. My background and training has been in non-fiction, always sticking to facts and the who, what, when, where, why and how of a story. I'm working on a mystery now, and I found myself "cornered" by my female protagonist. I enjoyed writing the romantic scenes and conflicts so much, that I lost direction. I didn't know which way to turn, then - out of desperation - I realized that I had to switch scenes, and let another voice take over. The second voice is a secondary character, but key to the plot. I treated it like a movie - switch scenes to another character, and see the events from his perspective. That allowed me to escape my "box" and continue. It feels good to know that this issue affects professional writers as well.CeliacGirlRIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09984715271411792335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-63340460300331324162009-06-22T09:47:04.832-04:002009-06-22T09:47:04.832-04:00I enjoy reading either 3rd or 1st if done well. I...I enjoy reading either 3rd or 1st if done well. I read a lot of memoir, so 1st-person gets a lot of my attention, but some of my favorite fiction writers use only 3rd and do so masterfully.<br /><br />Patrick O'Brian, a particular favorite, writes in 3rd but has segues where we see letters or journal entries from his characters written in 1st, so there is a shift there -- and gracefully done. He also very, very occasionally jumps POV in a particular scene, but always to provoke a response from the reader. No amateur head-hopping from O'Brian. It's quick and deft as a knife thrust.<br /><br />I actually prefer to write fiction and typically frame stories in 3rd, limited omniscient, usually with a narrator tightly aligned to the protagonist -- some direct and free indirect discourse, to get as close as possible without *being* the protagonist. (In cinema,think tight over-the-shoulder shot vs. POV shot)<br /><br />As a reader, tense doesn't really matter to me. Lots of memoirs use present tense (mine does for a greater sense of immediacy -- a nod to Hank's perspective on this), and I'm happy reading in any tense that has a whole construction and isn't just a writer with an agreement problem and an editor napping.Susannah Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04660387525544941776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-82139958408063263642009-06-22T08:40:48.648-04:002009-06-22T08:40:48.648-04:00I've tried both, and they definitely feel diff...I've tried both, and they definitely feel different. For me, first person comes out a lot snarkier (is that a word?). Third person is more detached. I think Rhys is right that the story may tell you which way to go. How close to it do you want to be?<br /><br />The first "real" book I wrote (still on a shelf) started out with three third-person POVs. I rewrote it--and added two more. I enjoyed the process, but I'm afraid to go back and look at it now.Sheila Connollyhttp://www.sheilaconnolly.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-48061293390871877812009-06-22T08:17:33.617-04:002009-06-22T08:17:33.617-04:00Hey Edith, I can't think of any writing teache...Hey Edith, I can't think of any writing teacher I respect who would recommend shifting POV within paragraphs. Though I suppose the more skillful the writer is, the more rules she can break:)Lucy Burdette aka Roberta Isleibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04660402177299546055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-834150466585746592009-06-22T07:30:51.013-04:002009-06-22T07:30:51.013-04:00Great topic, interesting experiences from all of y...Great topic, interesting experiences from all of you. Thanks for sharing. <br /><br />I am currently reading a series - NOT from any of the JR authors, mind you - featuring a quilting group, a topic that I thought my mother would like (I'm reading through quickly before I hand them off to her in person in a couple of weeks in California), and it's driving me crazy, because the POV sometimes shifts within a paragrah! Somehow we always know what everybody is thinking. I hope I'm not being reactionary by thinking, "Hey, that's breaking all the rules." They end up being pretty good stories, although all the main characters are WAY too nice. <br /><br />I like writing in first person, but the book I'm working on now is in third and always the protagonist's voice. Seems to work better.<br /><br />EdithEdith Maxwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01388006370860482509noreply@blogger.com