tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post4416415257059561343..comments2024-03-29T02:21:55.153-04:00Comments on Jungle Red Writers: Reaching beyond Reacher: Jon Land's role models for Caitlin StrongJungle Red Writershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16646429819267618412noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-26986293059755834812015-10-21T19:14:53.286-04:002015-10-21T19:14:53.286-04:00Hmmm, I'm not sure about the Anya and Dannerys...Hmmm, I'm not sure about the Anya and Dannerys. Only because it's such a common trope to have powerful woman at each other's throats. Like Princess Leia -- there can be only one woman in the universe at a time, apparently.... Would it be so crazy if women formed sisterly bonds? Or at least could work together? I just feel we don't see this in literature or pop culture, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. We're just not conditioned to think of women getting along, especially strong women.Susan Elia MacNealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349842866995778987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-25351018918666119922015-10-21T18:59:13.811-04:002015-10-21T18:59:13.811-04:00I have returned. So if by chance you're check...I have returned. So if by chance you're checking this page this evening and want to leave a comment, I'll be on-line all night and checking in regularly. Otherwise, thanks for participating and for a really great exchange of ideas on the nature of the hero in general and female heroes in particular. JonJon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-61726921642671402202015-10-21T15:21:33.287-04:002015-10-21T15:21:33.287-04:00Hey, everyone, I'll be off line for a couple h...Hey, everyone, I'll be off line for a couple hours but will be returning here around 6:00. So keep the comments and questions coming and check back here around 7:00 for more answers and exchanges. I'll also be on-line all the way up to around midnight, so if you've got some time, pop back in and leave a comment, then check out my response. Been great so far and I'm looking forward to Round 2 this evening! Thanks for joining me on the ride! JonJon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-34222947115390878152015-10-21T15:01:35.850-04:002015-10-21T15:01:35.850-04:00Thanks, Lisa. My comment about Daenerys and Arya ...Thanks, Lisa. My comment about Daenerys and Arya is more a general one about the prospects of bringing two characters together whose quests were previously mutually exclusive--kind of like "crossing the streams" in the first Ghostbusters movie. It would be fascinating to watch, and if anyone could pull it off it would be the people behind GAME OF THRONES, but as writers we are all somewhat beholden to the classic structure Joseph Campbell laid out in THE POWER OF MYTH whereby all characters who interact are playing specific roles: hero, sidekick, mentor, villain, rogue, etc. STAR WARS is the most obvious example these days and your point is well played there since Princess Leia and Luke Skywalker are on different quests that ultimately intersect. And maybe that will be the basis of a meeting between Daenerys and Arya in a future season just as it was last season when Tyrion met up with Daenerys. That make more sense?Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-59903200436671931262015-10-21T14:21:48.019-04:002015-10-21T14:21:48.019-04:00I agree with you, Jon: vulnerability. That's s...I agree with you, Jon: vulnerability. That's spot-on what I wasn't communicating precisely. I'm still pondering your comment about Daenerys and Arya ... :-)Lisa Alberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591430453957883948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-24112143399810196952015-10-21T14:03:28.129-04:002015-10-21T14:03:28.129-04:00Hank, your point about finding their true self is ...Hank, your point about finding their true self is spot on. We're really getting into some great, detailed stuff here, but the physical quest the hero is on is paralleled by precisely that metaphysical quest. The point you're alluding to is that only by succeeding in their physicals quest, can the hero succeed in her/his metaphysical one. And, in that sense, finding one's self becomes the ultimate payoff, the reward for finding whatever it was they set out in pursuit of. This created the very structure of the novel, modern stories distinguished from older ones mostly by the fact that the metaphysical quest comes to dominate the hero as opposed to or instead of the physical quest as in the work of Hemingway and Graham Greene just to name a couple. Excellent point and best of luck with the launch of your latest!Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-79543730596471965862015-10-21T13:40:55.902-04:002015-10-21T13:40:55.902-04:00Finally landed inAtlanta! What a great discussion....Finally landed inAtlanta! What a great discussion.. I love Claire in Outlander--but she sees to be sort of serial victim, you know? She;s brave, (and I want her clothes) byut sometimesI think the story makes her be unnecessarily humiliated.<br /><br />Arye, yes,indeed. ANd Khaleesi!! And talk about character development. Remmeber when she was a wimp? I guess eating a horses heart will change you.<br /><br />I am the outlier about The LIttle Princess. I really don;tike that book.<br /><br />Iw onder if it has to do with--not being happy in some way. The high school "outcast" situation, class clown or iconoclast--who's a misfit until they find their true self.Hank Phillippi Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17420701704169428286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-77324848180175265242015-10-21T13:34:29.570-04:002015-10-21T13:34:29.570-04:00Lisa, I love your point about strong heroes who ha...Lisa, I love your point about strong heroes who have weak moments because, in essence, it is those weak moments that make them strong. Again, it comes down to the process of overcoming that defines them. Using another Stephen King reference, think of the imprisoned writer Paul Sheldon struggling to overcome his crippling injuries in order to escape the home of Annie Wilkes. That's a physical act, while overcoming weakness is more of a metaphysical one, but the point and effect are the same.Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-19395795004494964202015-10-21T13:30:59.024-04:002015-10-21T13:30:59.024-04:00Thanks for your kind words, Kathy, and, wow, you m...Thanks for your kind words, Kathy, and, wow, you made me remember how great Stephen King is at building his female heroes and DOLORES CLAIBORNE is a great example. (And wasn't Kathy Bates great in the film version!?) His development of the young Abra Stone character in DOCTOR SLEEP is absolutely brilliant. In his long-awaited sequel to THE SHINING, King teams her with a much-troubled, traveled and grown-up Danny Torrance who finds his own redemption by helping her with her own gifts defeat a group of the most terrifying villains I've ever encountered in fiction, the True Knot. Abra is so real to us, so heroic and driven in her own right, that she practically jumps off the page into our world. King had previously done comparable work with young Charlie in FIRESTARTER and old Abigail in THE STAND. He's also a master of creating unlikely and reluctant heroes as opposed to those characters who willingly accept, even embrace, their nature as heroes. I believe in that respect my Caitlin Strong falls into the latter category the same way Jack Reacher does.Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-37972743766826934672015-10-21T13:18:05.047-04:002015-10-21T13:18:05.047-04:00The word that comes to mind, Lisa, is vulnerabilit...The word that comes to mind, Lisa, is vulnerability. If you think about it, every woman we're exploring here today is ultimately vulnerable in some way, most notably who are responding to having lost something they never get back. Vulnerability isn't necessarily a weakness, not at all. But it can be depending on how the hero deals with it. The difference between the hero and the every man is that the hero doesn't let his or her vulnerability define them. He or she overcomes it and succeeds in their ultimate quest as a result.Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-80964799566317914372015-10-21T13:14:59.053-04:002015-10-21T13:14:59.053-04:00I love the point you raise, Lisa, but the truth is...I love the point you raise, Lisa, but the truth is two heroes as powerful and driven as Daenerys and Arya would have lots of trouble cooexisting. The combined nature of their personalities would threaten to overwhelm the product of their relationship. But that would depend on how it's defined. Could Daenerys become a reluctant maternal figure for Arya, a adult to help her wayward soul find its way? My point is there would need to be a definition, a frame of reference for their relationship. Putting two powerful characters together to simply aid each other's quests isn't enough. There has be a personal and emotional basis for what brings them together and defines their relationship.Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-3129674148041244592015-10-21T13:10:47.553-04:002015-10-21T13:10:47.553-04:00I didn't see your response as I was writing mi...I didn't see your response as I was writing mine, Jon. That's a good point about the lost quality we often see on strong heroes. It's so true, isn't it? It makes them human and relatable. I like a strong hero who has weak moments. :-)Lisa Alberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591430453957883948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-2597856679214080052015-10-21T13:09:32.313-04:002015-10-21T13:09:32.313-04:00This is such a FANTASTIC discussion and, Susan, yo...This is such a FANTASTIC discussion and, Susan, your comment highlights why by adding Daenerys Targarian to the mix. I say that because she highlights another crucial element heroism: that being, the idea that all heroes must pay a price for their status. She steamrolled through the territories, defeating everyone in her path until she settles in as queen of a people who really don't want her and she is forced to make any number of difficult decisions that ultimately lead her ending up in the middle of nowhere on the back of her dragon. And the dragon is pretty much all she has at that point, able to trust so few than she ends up elevating Tyrion Lannister into her court and confidence. That's not just a move of desperation, it's emblematic of the fact that it's the price she must pay for her heroism and for continuing her quest to claim the Iron Throne. And, Susan, I think you're going to love Caitlin Strong. Let me know at jonlandauthor@aol.com!Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-87364174716410117992015-10-21T13:07:07.456-04:002015-10-21T13:07:07.456-04:00As much as I read and as many authors that I'v...As much as I read and as many authors that I've read and still have to read, I always feel like I've had my head stuck in the sand when I come across an author of your caliber, Jon, and you are new to me. Caitlin Strong sounds like a terrific character and one I want to get to know. I'm really going to need someone to wait on me this winter while all I do is read. (Of course, I do feel a bit better that you didn't know who Claire Frasure is. I've been a fan of hers for many years.)<br /><br />Strong women are always an attraction for me in reading. So many have already been mentioned here by others, and our wonderful Reds are especially brilliant in their women characters, who are strong, smart, and oh so able. Strength, of course, involves the fiber of what one is made of, not just the ability to leap tall buildings at a single bound. And, that is why I thought of Delores Claiborne in Stephen King's novel of the same name. The movie adaptation happened to be excellent, so I can say that in both the book and the movie, Delores possesses an inner strength that is quite a marvel. Spurred on by her wealthy employer, Vera Donovan, Delores takes to heart the advice that, "Sometimes, Dolores... sometimes, you have to be a high-riding bitch to survive. Sometimes, being a bitch is all a woman has to hang onto." Kathy Reelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17004247271452356577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-19452924566351527032015-10-21T13:05:20.423-04:002015-10-21T13:05:20.423-04:00Daenerys kicks serious arse too. I love that she&#...Daenerys kicks serious arse too. I love that she's a benevolent conqueror. I keep thinking she and Arya will cross paths at some point ... I'm hoping for that! The two of them should co-rule the kingdom.Lisa Alberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591430453957883948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-87865444317002640532015-10-21T13:03:06.741-04:002015-10-21T13:03:06.741-04:00Lisa, you hit it out of the park with Arya. Thinki...Lisa, you hit it out of the park with Arya. Thinking about it, she encapsulates each and every one of the qualities of heroism we've disseminated here. Kind of a younger Ellen Ripley character, forever scarred by witnessing the beheading of her father--can you imagine a more traumatic event? Her quest for vengeance follows similar lines as Beatrix Kiddo from KILL BILL, especially this past season when her paths finally cross with one of those on that "list" she keeps repeating to herself and anyone else who'll listen. And her character highlights another quality somewhat reminiscent of Lizbeth Salander in that at times, especially this past season, she just seems lost. Journeying down a road with no end and no landmarks. Finding your way is another classic trait of the hero and it will indeed be interesting to see what happens to Arya next season!Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-19284032279205521442015-10-21T12:55:48.697-04:002015-10-21T12:55:48.697-04:00Lisa, I'm so glad you're an Arya fan, too!...Lisa, I'm so glad you're an Arya fan, too! I also love Daenerys Targarian. Haven't watched the new fall season TV shows, but Quantico has great buzz. <br /><br />And Hallie and Jon, now I'm thinking about the isolation/outsider trope — wow. Lots to unpack and think about.<br /><br />Off to meet Caitlin Strong — can't wait!Susan Elia MacNealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349842866995778987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-65462777795703241032015-10-21T12:48:25.136-04:002015-10-21T12:48:25.136-04:00Oh Susan, I love Arya from "Game of Thrones&q...Oh Susan, I love Arya from "Game of Thrones"! I love watching her character grow up in the series. From sassy Tom boy to bad-ass heroine on a quest. <br /><br />I've been checking out the new Fall series -- not sure how many of them I'm going to continue watching -- but there's definitely a theme of isolation as Hallie mentions coupled with kick-assed-ness and backstory trauma/mystery. The tattooed Jane on "Blindspot" and whats-her-face :-) on "Quantico."Lisa Alberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591430453957883948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-62372827340874616012015-10-21T12:43:32.563-04:002015-10-21T12:43:32.563-04:00Wow, Susan, those are all great choices! So diffe...Wow, Susan, those are all great choices! So different and varied which is the overriding point that continues to emerge from this discussion. There are many different kinds of female heroes, just as there are male. But some themes remain dominant and omnipresent, like needing to overcome great obstacles. THE SECRET GARDEN is a perfect example in that respect. A classic quest, gothic in this case, that Mary embarks on in the wake of moving in with her uncle following a tragedy (Am I remembering that right?) The garden itself comes to define her quest, along with her figurative "rescue" of her hapless cousin, finding love herself in the process. Even though it's a gothic tale, as is JANE EYRE, the basic elements of heroism and the hero's quest are the same. You know, thinking of it that way, there are probably more classic modern heroes who are women, actually, than men!Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-6391612744801950812015-10-21T12:19:11.971-04:002015-10-21T12:19:11.971-04:00Jon, I would love to take you to coffee and discus...Jon, I would love to take you to coffee and discuss this topic endlessly! I'd add Sara Crewe and Mary Lennox from A LITTLE PRINCESS and THE SECRET GARDEN, both by Frances Hodgeson Burnett . Jane Eyre. And then Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And really, just all the female characters written by Joss Wheedon. Arya from Game of Thrones. And I'm really excited to see Rey (played by Daisy Ridley) in Star Wars VII.Susan Elia MacNealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349842866995778987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-83035472110764537692015-10-21T11:33:21.219-04:002015-10-21T11:33:21.219-04:00And, Deborah, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit t...And, Deborah, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I'm not familiar with Diana Gabaldon's Claire Fraser, so I'm not able to comment on her. You win the prize for stumping me!Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-10807651951791618612015-10-21T11:31:16.151-04:002015-10-21T11:31:16.151-04:00FChurch, a great point about how love and romance ...FChurch, a great point about how love and romance can quite easily detract from a hero's quest, although in many cases the death of a loved one is what defines that quest. In the case of Caitlin Strong and Cort Wesley Masters, and I'll think you'll like this, their relationship is at its strongest when they and Cort Wesley's sons are threatened. These are two characters who define themselves based on a kind of frontier mentality. The closer they are to losing each other forever to the threat they're facing, the closer they become. And I strive to juxtapose this against how they deal with everyday emotional crisis that come to define their characters just as much. And that's the thing about the nature of a noble quest, as defined by how far a hero is willing to go to protect someone she loves. There's a terrific film called THE DEEP END in which a mother brilliantly played by Tilda Swinton who will stop at nothing to cover-up her gay son's involvement in the murder of his older lover. No, she's not battling a giant alien monster like Ripley did in ALIENS but, essentially, her quest is the same and it's handled just as effectively and she's just as heroic in not letting anything come between her and the love she feels for her son.Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-25916805808137971792015-10-21T11:24:49.719-04:002015-10-21T11:24:49.719-04:00Thanks for having me back, Deborah. I think you&#...Thanks for having me back, Deborah. I think you're really onto something with Molly Weasley's taking out of Bellatrix. It's kind of like Ripley's triumphing over the queen alien in ALIENS, isn't it--a mother defending her young. And I think you're really going to enjoy KILL BILL. The Bride has so much she has to overcome before she even has an opportunity to gain vengeance. Watch her literally dropping out of bed and crawling across the floor, because her legs have gone numb from being in a coma for so long. Her character is defined by the very determination to succeed, to refuse to fail. Nothing is going to stop her from getting out of that hospital room. And that's what also defines Molly--she isn't going to lose, she can't let herself lose. There's too much at stake. In that sense, her quest is much more selfless than the Bride's in KILL BILL but they're equally effective and, man, are you going to love both KILL BILL movies!Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-44755554508554295502015-10-21T11:19:09.311-04:002015-10-21T11:19:09.311-04:00Wow, Mary, it's like you're reading my min...Wow, Mary, it's like you're reading my mind! I couldn't agree more with all your points. The Ellen Ripley example is the purest in the sense that both, ultimately, are defending their young. That's what makes the epic climactic battle so brilliant and classic: essentially, two queens in their respective rights who can only survive if the other dies. Think of it this way: the villain takes from the hero what he or she values most: her dignity in the case of Lizbeth Salander, home in the case of the Wicked Witch of the West, her one chance at happiness in the case of Beatrix Kiddo, the Bride. The Joker's brilliance is defined, on the other hand, by the antithesis of that. As Michael Caine's Alfred so brilliantly intones, "Some men just want to see the world burn." The Joker's nature is defined by the fact that his quest is about nothing and yet he sees Batman as the moral justification for his own existence. And in the end, just like Alfred's army detachment had to burn the forest in order to get the rebels, Batman must resist becoming like the Joker in order to destroy him. Great stuff! And, by the way, comic heroes and villains are the purest of all in both cases!Jon Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783709756792749654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-83387866310396956042015-10-21T11:15:09.858-04:002015-10-21T11:15:09.858-04:00Jon, the 'push-pull' you describe for Cait...Jon, the 'push-pull' you describe for Caitlin is one that I always observe with trepidation--especially for a series character. Will a love interest soften the character--pull the teeth from their independence/individuality? I love the way, for example, that Deborah's Gemma and Duncan have a relationship, kids--and still retain a strong focus on their professional lives. Ditto for Clare and Russ. And Louise Penny's Gamache and Reine-Marie.<br /><br />And, as an aside, I didn't mention Hermione (or Luna or Tonks) from Harry Potter only because we know right from the beginning that Hermione, at least, is no mere female sidekick.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com