tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post5598542667610962634..comments2024-03-29T11:29:56.764-04:00Comments on Jungle Red Writers: Leslie Karst: Appropriation or Appreciation?Jungle Red Writershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16646429819267618412noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-67572424956091515802018-02-17T08:29:45.273-05:002018-02-17T08:29:45.273-05:00Not even part of the issue but the main issue in p...Not even part of the issue but the main issue in publishing. Dhonielle Clayton, who helped found the #weneeddiversebooks movement, has been talking about it in her recent interviews. Publishers still don’t publish a lot of diverse books so #ownvoices writers who are writing their own experiences literally hear, “we love your book but we already have our one black book” and oftentimes, it is written by a white person. Blisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14096407354598259777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-75925253580275170182018-02-17T08:26:37.364-05:002018-02-17T08:26:37.364-05:00Trying to comment again. I do think cultural appro...Trying to comment again. I do think cultural appropriation is a serious concern. I agree the key is doing your research, paying sensitivity readers, etc. However, another key is not getting defensive when someone does say “Hey, you messsed up my culture and I am upset.” Because just like someone has a right to write whatever they want, others have a right to criticize it. I do think it is more of a concern with marginalized voices (minorities, LGBTQ, people with disabilities) than it is with a non-Italian women writing Italian women because bad rep has bigger repercussions for us.<br /><br /><br />Blisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14096407354598259777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-77730770517476798742018-02-16T18:00:07.948-05:002018-02-16T18:00:07.948-05:00Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't black but beca...Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't black but because they created the Black Panther, the Falcon, Storm and other characters, black people saw themselves as superheroes, and now black actors are in all the movies. There are also plenty of black writers and artists. Maybe they primed the pump for minorities to contribute. <br /><br />While I think people should respect their culture, they don't have to stick to it. I'm of German heritage, and I don't like sauerkraut. The restaurant is named Gauguin. I guess he should have stayed in France and painted French people. I think James Michener said in Centennial something like culture is only in a museum. It can change and should since most cultures used to have slavery. Sally from PAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03649707016754971847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-65484204291720319832018-02-16T17:41:48.899-05:002018-02-16T17:41:48.899-05:00Mai Tai is my middle name these days, Ingrid... :)...Mai Tai is my middle name these days, Ingrid... :)Leslie Karsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15779717365273916569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-47056160670642212622018-02-16T17:25:46.351-05:002018-02-16T17:25:46.351-05:00And congrats on the book, Leslie! I hope you'...And congrats on the book, Leslie! I hope you're having a Mai Tai or the like to celebrate!Ingrid Thofthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063912686011336076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-51798902876812006092018-02-16T17:03:21.453-05:002018-02-16T17:03:21.453-05:00Great post, Leslie! I love your work and had no id...Great post, Leslie! I love your work and had no idea you weren't Italian, so there you go. I think characters come to an author already formed (at least they do to me), like my black gay photographer Andre Eisel in the hat shop mysteries. The series would be much less interesting without him, just like my life would be without the many varied people I consider my dearest friends. I think if an author is true to their characters and does the hard work then they'll be fine. Jenn McKinlayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214926031147370862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-25305368616643717842018-02-16T14:02:39.798-05:002018-02-16T14:02:39.798-05:00The first thing I thought of when reading about th...The first thing I thought of when reading about the cultural appropriation was Diana Gabaldon and the wildly popular Outlander series, the books, which I've read all and love them. Diana had never even been to Scotland when she wrote her first Outlander book, although she's certainly made up for that since. Of course, I suspect that she did lots of research for that first novel. And, there is Debs and a couple of other authors I know who are American and write series set in England, but who at least had visited the country they write about first. I've always said that there surely is no better guide to London than reading Debs' series. And, James Ziskin writes a great series from the point of view of a female. So, I'm in the camp that you can write about other cultures and places outside of your realm of personal experience or personal genetics. Again, I don't want made-up aspects of the culture; I want dedicated research to a true depiction. <br /><br />Leslie, your series sounds, well, delicious. I am looking forward to getting acquainted with it, not only for the food, but learning more about the Santa Cruz area, too. Kathy Reelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17004247271452356577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-52870646864771735152018-02-16T13:52:29.703-05:002018-02-16T13:52:29.703-05:00Aspects of this topic are sore subjects with me. I...Aspects of this topic are sore subjects with me. I hate it when a third or fourth or fifth generation protagonist of my main ethnic background speaks that language with their family or sprinkles their conversations with words in that language. That is most definitely NOT my experience. I hate it when people expect me to "act" like I'm Italian or expect me to be familiar with Italian cuisine or culture. So, I am turned off by American-born characters who come across more as foreigners than as the Americans that they are. I'm just an American, NOT an "Italian" American. (Leslie, some relatives on my dad's side of the family had DNA testing done, and found out that we are part middle eastern, which did not surprise me.)<br /><br />(Trying to step down off my soap box now:-)<br /><br />I do enjoy reading well-researched books about other cultures that make me feel as though I've learned something, in addition to being entertained. <br /><br />DebRo Deb Romanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01650858888197217258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-70219478476724467372018-02-16T13:13:06.721-05:002018-02-16T13:13:06.721-05:00Just finally joining you all now because it's ...Just finally joining you all now because it's only eight a.m. here in Hawai'i where I am, but what a terrific, fascinating conversation! <br /><br />I think Ingrid makes a good point: If certain cultures are mostly only being written about by those NOT from that culture, then something is wrong, in that that the writers actually from that culture are being ignored or not encouraged to write. But this is something we as readers can help with, by seeking out those underrepresented writers and buying their books.<br /><br />Thanks so much for all of your comments! (And by the way, I LOVE that you are from Texas, Deborah!)Leslie Karsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15779717365273916569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-2331996985786886652018-02-16T13:05:41.068-05:002018-02-16T13:05:41.068-05:00That's the way I see it, Ingrid. Is the cultur...That's the way I see it, Ingrid. Is the culture I, a white hetero Christian ciswoman, want to write about marginalized? Are their authentic voices shunted aside by publishing and Hollywood? If so, I would proceed with extreme caution, both for fear of offending, but also to respect and (hopefully) make way for genuine black or Muslim or transgendered artists.<br /><br />In Leslie's case, are Italian-American writers being denied a place on bookstore shelves? Don DeLillo, Adriana Trigani, Camille Paglia and Lisa Scottolini would argue against it!Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09553268569509053159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-40457091241000743012018-02-16T12:40:18.992-05:002018-02-16T12:40:18.992-05:00I'm with you 100% cliches are lazy writing, pe...I'm with you 100% cliches are lazy writing, period, and they can creep into any writing whether you are writing about your own culture or not. It takes more research to not "write what you know," but it can be great for you and readers.<br /><br />Very much looking forward to the new book!Mark Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567392254011373198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-79598757206463927652018-02-16T12:13:04.435-05:002018-02-16T12:13:04.435-05:00A good book, good story or a good character is a g...A good book, good story or a good character is a good book, good story or a good character regardless of who is writing it.<br /><br />Greg Rucka has written novels and comics. He always seems to have great female characters. He wrote a pretty good run working on the Wonder Woman comic series and as you might've guessed he is neither an Amazonian princess or even a woman.<br /><br />When he wrote Queen & Country as a comic series and then later turned it into prose novels, his British spy Tara Chace was FREAKING AWESOME!!!<br /><br />He's written a murder mystery about a female musician, a series of books with a male lead named Atticus Kodiak and so much more.<br /><br />And not once did I think, oh he's a guy he can't possibly write a good female character.<br /><br />To Ingrid's point of not being enough published authors writing about their own particular segment of life, that's fine. But someone who isn't gay shouldn't be prevented from including a gay character by their publisher either.<br /><br />All I want is a good story with interesting characters told to me in an exciting manner. The gender, sexual orientation or skin color of a writer doesn't concern me when I decide whether or not to read a book. <br /><br />Since I'm stupid, I keep it simple. It's all about the story.<br /><br />I once read an op-ed in the local paper written by the head of the women's studies department at a local college where she opined that we should all go see a list of movies that were made by women. Not because the movies were good but ONLY because they were made by women. I looked at the list and half of them were documentaries. You have a better chance of me MAKING a documentary rather than watching one.<br /><br />It kind of ticked me off because I don't make choices on what movie to see based on the reproductive genitalia of the person who makes the movie. I'll see Star Wars before a documentary. I'd watch Sense & Sensibility (the Emma Thompson version) before I'd ever see a horror film. Because it is about what interests me in the movie NOT who makes it.<br /><br />Well, unless it is Jodie Foster, I see everything she is involved in (and I've seen some REALLY bad movies just because she was in it).Jay Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11409350742317719903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-40423495697751258562018-02-16T12:00:50.717-05:002018-02-16T12:00:50.717-05:00I spoke at a book group this week, Debs, and your ...I spoke at a book group this week, Debs, and your name came up in the discussion. One of the woman said, "Did you know Deborah Crombie is from Texas? I thought she was British!"<br />Ingrid Thofthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063912686011336076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-2037021147274399052018-02-16T11:41:13.146-05:002018-02-16T11:41:13.146-05:00I remember being really surprised to hear you were...I remember being really surprised to hear you were from Texas Debs!Lucy Burdette aka Roberta Isleibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04660402177299546055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-66320244503925981492018-02-16T11:29:56.978-05:002018-02-16T11:29:56.978-05:00I once had THE BEST breakfast ever on the Santa Cr...I once had THE BEST breakfast ever on the Santa Cruz pier -- it was a calamari steak and eggs!! We are all Italian at heart!<br /><br />By the way, Dear Jungle Reds, my sister and I visited Poisoned Pen in Scottsdale yesterday == thinking of all of you!! And, we had dinner at Cornish Pasty. It was wonderful.Denise Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02790883493798517829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-91431687605070894362018-02-16T11:27:01.236-05:002018-02-16T11:27:01.236-05:00Leslie, I'm right there with you on writing ab...Leslie, I'm right there with you on writing about "other" cultures. Do you research and be respectful. Otherwise, I'd only be able to write about a middle-aged white woman of stereotypical "American mutt" ethnic heritage, who has spent her entire life in the suburubs. Boring!<br /><br />Mary/LizLiz Millironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04919409969263609919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-21032637239411835172018-02-16T11:21:26.246-05:002018-02-16T11:21:26.246-05:00Hi Leslie! So glad you have a new Sally book--can&...Hi Leslie! So glad you have a new Sally book--can't wait to read it!<br /><br />And, boy, did you touch a nerve with me this morning. I've been dealing with the whole "appropriation" thing my entire writing career, having had the nerve to write a British series from British characters' viewpoints when I am from (as Ann pointed out!) TEXAS! It all goes back to that old "write what you know" trope. Of course we should research but we should also write about what we love and what we WANT to know. If we only wrote about our own lives, fiction would be dull indeed. And as the writer learns to see into the minds and hearts of others, the reader does, too.Deborah Crombiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988750789088153601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-30881590082837548062018-02-16T11:12:16.304-05:002018-02-16T11:12:16.304-05:00That's a good way to look at it, Ingrid.That's a good way to look at it, Ingrid.Deborah Crombiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988750789088153601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-77798406569963426412018-02-16T10:38:27.200-05:002018-02-16T10:38:27.200-05:00It would be a shame to limit my reading experience...It would be a shame to limit my reading experience to authors who could write only about their gender, ethnic background, and time period. All the historical fiction would fly out the window. I'm super critical about stories set in my home state. If the author gets it right I don't care where he/she is from. It just means they did the research and didn't fall back on trite nonsense.Pat Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12732230586783432052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-78172023911313631762018-02-16T10:11:34.303-05:002018-02-16T10:11:34.303-05:00I wonder if part of the issue is when the voices f...I wonder if part of the issue is when the voices from other cultures/ethnicities/races etc. are written by members of the majority population and aren't given the opportunity to represent themselves. For example, if white writers write black characters, but few black writers writing black characters are being published, the landscape is skewed. If there are only X number of books being published that feature a gay main character, and most of them are written by straight writers that's problematic. Writers should write whatever they want, but publishers need to broaden who they publish.Ingrid Thofthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063912686011336076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-86341027768768449022018-02-16T09:30:21.652-05:002018-02-16T09:30:21.652-05:00I guess that if no one wrote about anyone who wasn...I guess that if no one wrote about anyone who wasn’t just like them then you wouldn’t have sci-fi, fantasy, or even historical books. After all how could someone alive now really know what it felt like to live in the past? I think that as long as a book is well written and the culture is handled respectfully then writers shouldn’t be limited to just writting about their heritageSandyG265https://www.blogger.com/profile/09063871775065822845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-52828391393077524622018-02-16T09:11:30.348-05:002018-02-16T09:11:30.348-05:00Although. I do have a writer pal who is extremely ...Although. I do have a writer pal who is extremely talented and well-published. She wrote a book where the main character, a teen aged girl, is a different ethnicity. Her editor waved her off,saying that might be a problem with readers who ARE of that ethnicity. So there's that. So maybe...we also need to look at it from another perspective, just along the way. <br />It's tricky. <br />Not "getting it right," which is doable, or being convincing, ditto, but how someone else might feel. Hmm.Hank Phillippi Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07630366214207785339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-11337452951204832342018-02-16T09:07:54.583-05:002018-02-16T09:07:54.583-05:00This is so fascinating! Because you were writing w...This is so fascinating! Because you were writing who you "thought" you were, and that was fine. Now you think that's not who--but it IS who! So yeah, it's great to get your actual DNA, but your writer DNA was formed in a completely different way. <br /><br />We could list books here all day where the author is not exactly --or even remotely close to--the characters. We don;t care, though, right? As long as we're convinced.Hank Phillippi Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07630366214207785339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-25729994483334097492018-02-16T08:56:56.359-05:002018-02-16T08:56:56.359-05:00I agree that, with research and respect, you can w...I agree that, with research and respect, you can write about other cultures. If you couldn't, our books would be far less diverse than the communities we live in. If writers are to be honest when telling their stories, they need to be free to include characters of every background.Gigi Norwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00495357787099352860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-75155795612765538492018-02-16T08:53:27.477-05:002018-02-16T08:53:27.477-05:00Good morning Leslie and kudos on the newest book. ...Good morning Leslie and kudos on the newest book. I have to admit I rarely read food books, get too hungry and have to put the book aside and head to the kitchen! <br /><br />What a good question this morning.<br />"Readers: How do you feel about characters who are culturally different than their creators?" <br /><br />Other than the caveat that a lot of research needs to happen, I see no problem. If there were, no writer could write in a voice other than her own, same sex, same gender, same ethnicity, same old same old. How dull would that be? I doubt Agatha Christie was ever male, Belgian or had a moustache. Well, maybe the latter.<br /><br />I liken this situation to my own profession. It never occurred to me that I would have to be Navajo to deliver little Navajo babies, and what would I do this if the mother was Hopi? I never saw the need to be dying in order to care for a hospice patient. Or have a gunshot wound to the gut to scrub in on a bowel resection.<br /><br />Big HOWEVER, I did need to know first the basics of care, adding in a soupcon of experience every now and then, and asking/reading/learning about things that I didn't already know. <br /><br />One of the first things I learned in Tuba City was to refrain from bathing a patient who was covered in ashes and herbs and grasses, lest I wash away a very expensive treatment from the shaman.<br /><br />So I expect all of you, my darling Reds, if entering unfamiliar territory, first read the map.<br /><br />PS I was gobsmacked when I learned one of my very favorite writers of British mysteries was a TEXAN! <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14187856103924954287noreply@blogger.com