tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post7343373433571930903..comments2024-03-28T17:39:34.611-04:00Comments on Jungle Red Writers: More writing advice: Elizabeth Sims and tips on getting away with coincidenceJungle Red Writershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16646429819267618412noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-80810291416026533152010-08-31T23:52:26.143-04:002010-08-31T23:52:26.143-04:00Yes Elizabeth--see you there! Let's find a qui...Yes Elizabeth--see you there! Let's find a quiet moment, okay?<br /><br />Thanks again..Hank Phillippi Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17420701704169428286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-42802110132668631642010-08-31T21:20:57.568-04:002010-08-31T21:20:57.568-04:00What a treat today has been, hanging out with such...What a treat today has been, hanging out with such smart writers and readers. Will I get to see any of you in person at Bouchercon?Elizabeth Simshttp://www.elizabethsims.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-46116992433793711632010-08-31T20:58:47.650-04:002010-08-31T20:58:47.650-04:00I liked your examples of avoiding cliches by tweak...I liked your examples of avoiding cliches by tweaking them into unexpected juxtapositions. Some writers make me laugh out loud, they do that so well. Think I'll give myself a post-it reminder for this manuscript in progress. Thanks!Susan C Sheahttp://www.susancshea.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-68044058000392475702010-08-31T20:58:28.661-04:002010-08-31T20:58:28.661-04:00I liked your examples of avoiding cliches by tweak...I liked your examples of avoiding cliches by tweaking them into unexpected juxtapositions. Some writers make me laugh out loud, they do that so well. Think I'll give myself a post-it reminder for this manuscript in progress. Thanks!Susan C Sheahttp://www.susancshea.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-28364494946771716792010-08-31T19:31:46.866-04:002010-08-31T19:31:46.866-04:00Running late into this wonderful party--what a fan...Running late into this wonderful party--what a fantastic post! Thank you.<br /><br />The coincidences I love are the writer coincidences--the little treasures we leave for ourselves that we don't realize at the time we're leaving. You know? <br /><br />On page 50 we think--wow, here's where she could use that celery I gave her on page two and didn't know why.<br /><br />Every time I type something and think: whoa, wonder where THAT came from? I'm always eager to see what will happen to it later. My subconscious brain knows why...or does it? Or maybe it's just all chance.<br /><br />Thanks Elizabeth and HAllie. Wonderful.Hank Phillippi Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17420701704169428286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-46987088918987561112010-08-31T16:24:30.700-04:002010-08-31T16:24:30.700-04:00Wendy, Julie, Cindy, glad you checked in! And Hall...Wendy, Julie, Cindy, glad you checked in! And Hallie, this is fun, hey? My partner Marcia just remarked that people love coincidence because it can be interpreted as evidence of a larger plan out there.Elizabeth Simshttp://www.elizabethsims.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-58719714120368421392010-08-31T16:06:31.070-04:002010-08-31T16:06:31.070-04:00Cindy, I had to laugh when I saw your comment. Lif...Cindy, I had to laugh when I saw your comment. Life is FULL of coincidences we'd never get away with in fiction. I once heard a police detective say they relied on the stupidity of criminals. A stupid villain wouldn't cut it, either.Hallie Ephronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04759439029582054503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-69080718026663672552010-08-31T15:25:04.815-04:002010-08-31T15:25:04.815-04:00I once heard a detective give a lecture stating th...I once heard a detective give a lecture stating that if it wasn't for coincidences they probably wouldn't solve many of their crimes. Thanks for your advice, Elizabeth, on how to make those fictional coincidences appear realistic.Cindy Samplehttp://www.cindysamplebooks.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-39062653919420462702010-08-31T15:14:39.397-04:002010-08-31T15:14:39.397-04:00Great interview, ladies!
Elizabeth, as always, yo...Great interview, ladies!<br /><br />Elizabeth, as always, your advice is right on the mark. I, too, was struck by your agent's comment that readers love coincidence. Who would have thought? But I suspect that maybe those of us who have feared coincidence, really fear contrivance. If the "coincidence" has been set-up well, as you explain, when it happens it feels totally natural. But if it's plotted with a heavy hand or not at all, it feels contrived.<br /><br />Having said that, perhaps the best coincidence is the one that even we, as the writers, discover by surprise as we're writing!<br /><br />Thanks for your sage advice, Elizabeth.Julie Comptonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11518352063650354325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-28180577616227569072010-08-31T13:26:10.933-04:002010-08-31T13:26:10.933-04:00Thanks for the advice, Elizabeth.
I haven't ...Thanks for the advice, Elizabeth. <br /><br />I haven't had a chance to read your Rita Farmer books, but you're one of the writers who made me want to write mysteries. My husband and I are both huge fans of the Lillian Byrd books! (Mr. Wendy still jokes about having candy for dinner!)<br /><br />Sorry to turn into a fangirl. :)Publiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05803569911029840473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-31766428220634340822010-08-31T13:20:29.139-04:002010-08-31T13:20:29.139-04:00Rhys, I agree, an author selectively withholding i...Rhys, I agree, an author selectively withholding information from the reader -- that's a real sin against the reader, even when it's Dame Agatha! Conan Doyle did it sometimes too with Sherlock Holmes, specifically in the story 'The Five Orange Pips.'<br /><br />Ramona, coincidence is, I guess, but one of many forms of plot convenience. The challenge for a writer is not merely to be a great stylist, but to be a solid plotter. And it's a beautiful challenge.Elizabeth Simshttp://www.elizabethsims.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-39295421938740923972010-08-31T13:13:25.125-04:002010-08-31T13:13:25.125-04:00Plot coincidence and plot convenience...
Ramona -...Plot coincidence and plot convenience...<br /><br />Ramona - maybe they're almost the same thing...<br /><br />Plot coincidence is when Gertie is working the register at a liquor store and checks a driver's license and recognizes Joe as the man she witnessed, 30 years earlier, killing her mother.<br /><br />Plot convenience: Joe still there, sitting at the curb smoking a cigarette outside the store when Gertie emerges three hours later with a Derringer in her pocket.Hallie Ephronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04759439029582054503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-11178803027060907162010-08-31T12:36:12.699-04:002010-08-31T12:36:12.699-04:00Great post, and very timely for me personally. I&#...Great post, and very timely for me personally. I've been working on a story that (seemingly) hinges upon coincidence. I haven't been quite sure how to end it, so going back right now to check my groundwork. <br /><br />I think writers sometimes confuse coincidence with plot convenience. Or maybe they're the same thing?Ramonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00627775403015684868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-79307129496904621572010-08-31T12:18:46.363-04:002010-08-31T12:18:46.363-04:00Hi Elizabeth:
I adore good first lines--collect t...Hi Elizabeth:<br /><br />I adore good first lines--collect them, in fact. Loved the hairy arm.<br /><br />I've also always shied away from coincidence, even though in real life there are amazing ones--like my long email correspondence with someone running a library site, who turned out to live a few streets from me.<br /><br />What annoys me in a mystery is when the sleuth solves the crime by knowing facts that we, the raeders, couldn't possibly know. Agatha Christie did that several times.Rhys Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663634889908752121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-13888716958847649972010-08-31T12:05:45.320-04:002010-08-31T12:05:45.320-04:00Jan, I'm very glad you like my ideas! All the ...Jan, I'm very glad you like my ideas! All the most successful creativity (and by that I mean the highest quality creativity) has the same root, freedom from fear. And since one's life ought properly to be a work of art, we can see the core of everything right there.Elizabeth Simshttp://www.elizabethsims.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-34842375842073549242010-08-31T11:59:10.014-04:002010-08-31T11:59:10.014-04:00Rosemary's question on description is a good o...Rosemary's question on description is a good one. How much, and just what? I mix it up. I'll luxuriate in describing a major character, but hotfoot it with minors, picking out just one or two details to pop them from the background, like their eyeglasses that look like a tiger chewed them or something. With majors, I'll often just do a small detail when we first meet them, then give more over time.<br /><br />As to Roberta's question, yeah, sometimes I'll stop writing and brainstorm on paper about how that character looks, smells, acts. Because I find if I don't have a clear, lively picture in my mind, I won't be able to get that character across well.<br /><br />And boy, Terry has it right. Steven Spielberg did the same thing in 'Jaws' with the exploding scuba tank in the shark's mouth. (It wasn't in the book.) No way could an air tank explode with a fireball like that, but you're so totally into it by that point, you go, "Yeah, die, shark, die!!!"Elizabeth Simshttp://esims@elizabethsims.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-80436810152411832032010-08-31T11:50:15.627-04:002010-08-31T11:50:15.627-04:00On coincidence,
My general feeling has always bee...On coincidence,<br /><br />My general feeling has always been that readers will put up with it in the beginning -- and as Terry notes -- if its the premise, but want nothing to do with anything remotely coincidental at the end.Jan Broganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11323983086318138814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-41541176906413095712010-08-31T11:47:40.952-04:002010-08-31T11:47:40.952-04:00Wow Elizabeth -
Welcome to JR. You had me at hell...Wow Elizabeth -<br /><br />Welcome to JR. You had me at hello, but.... I've been delving into books on Buddhist philosophy and creativity in general at an accelerated rate lately, so I became increasingly fascinated with your interview as it went on.<br /><br />I couldn't agree with you more on just about every point and LOVE the way you put it.<br /><br />And loved the beverage metaphors -- not to mention the exercise itself.Jan Broganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11323983086318138814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-10362575248002957862010-08-31T09:23:38.012-04:002010-08-31T09:23:38.012-04:00I'm reminded of a workshop given by Martha Pow...I'm reminded of a workshop given by Martha Powers who quoted Johnny Carson: "If they buy the premise, they'll buy the bit." Setting up, or foreshadowing whatever will play out to be a 'coincidence' will have the reader willing to accept it. <br /><br />Terry<br /><a href="http://terryodell.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Terry's Place</a><br /><a href="http://www.terryodell.com" rel="nofollow">Romance with a Twist--of Mystery</a>Terry Odellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610682530545306687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-16983268046143908192010-08-31T08:56:55.171-04:002010-08-31T08:56:55.171-04:00thanks for a great interview ladies! I was struck ...thanks for a great interview ladies! I was struck by the "readers love coincidence" comment too. I would think you have to be careful so the readers don't feel cheated...<br /><br />I'm curious about whether you take the time to come up with those unusual descriptions in a first draft, or go back and add them in later.Lucy Burdette aka Roberta Isleibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04660402177299546055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-72089944659652914692010-08-31T07:54:47.036-04:002010-08-31T07:54:47.036-04:00I've been very gunshy of using coincidence, ev...I've been very gunshy of using coincidence, even though, as you point out, it does occur in real life as it does in many beloved or bestselling books. Maybe I'll be brave enough to try it in an upcoming book.<br />Loved the tomato stake decription! I have to force myself to give physical descriptions of the characters - don't know why - except sometimes that whole "his hulking frame filled the doorway" or "he wore...blah, blah" is so boring when I read it, that I hate to do it myself. How much physical description do you really think writers need to give and how much can we leave to the readers imagination?<br />Thanks for visiting!Rosemary Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08033747422699443024noreply@blogger.com