JENN McKINLAY: I recently read a book that was a debut novel last year. It sold thousands of copies and hit the bestseller lists, primarily because of the buzz it received on BookTok. I was excited to find a new author and bought it...only to discover that it was the WORST book I have ever read. To clarify it wasn't bad because of the writing but rather the characters or more accurately because of the lack of character in the characters.
This is a subjective opinion (clearly) and no I won't say the title or the author because that's not what this post is about. What hit me square in the face was the reality that "sympathetic" or "likable" characters as we once used to know them are gone, baby, gone. Now the unsympathetic character is not the same as the unreliable narrator. The reader knows going into it with an unreliable narrator that they're, well, unreliable.
The unsympathetic or unlikable character is just that. A person who does things or makes decisions that are so thoughtless or mean or just bleck that you can't like them or forgive their transgressions. And it used to be that your editor would encourage you to find ways to make the protagonist likable because readers want to root for the hero or heroine and see that they had a character arc worth being invested in.
But here's the thing, judging by the immense popularity of recent books with awful protagonists, I'm thinking the unlikable character might not be as forbidden as it used to be. Naturally, I started to ponder why and when this changed.
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| Terrifying! |
I looked at the different shows/media that have shaped the current readership for the past twenty years and realized that "reality TV', which has gifted us with such gems as Dance Moms, Keeping up with the Kardashians, The Bachelor, Survivor, and Love Island--to name just a few--have fine tuned diva moments, bad behavior, lying, cheating, fighting, and flouncing into high entertainment.
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| Dance Moms - Eek! |
It occurred to me that we're now writing for readers who think people behaving badly is normal -- and, yes, I know it's not just reality TV modeling the bad behavior. We've definitely become a country of self over community but that's another blog post entirely.
According to thestreet.com, reality TV boomed in 2007 ironically during a 99 day WGA writer's strike that allowed studios to create fresh content without relying on writers, establishing a foothold with Gen Z viewers that is going strong to this day. Is it any wonder then that the fiction which features incredibly unlikable or unsympathetic characters is suddenly hitting the top of the bestseller's lists? Nope, it isn't.
So, tell me, Reds and Readers, without naming titles or authors please, have you noticed that some of the most popular fiction features protagonists that are not sympathetic or likable? What other formats do you think have changed reader's expectations in fiction?
Reality TV has a lot to answer for, but so does the women's fiction trope of 'sad girl lit' - a seemingly endless stream of female protagonists who are 30-ish, career oriented/financially okay, often but not inevitably single, usually surrounded by a circle of good friends...and they're just so dissatisfied with their trauma-free life that they mope and whine for 300 pages before having a mild epiphany over new shoes or a new love interest to get to their HEA.
ReplyDeleteNo search for meaning, no seizing agency, no effort to make the world a better place by volunteering as a Big Sister or mentoring younger women in their workplace or spending a weekend hammering nails for Habitat for Humanity. Not even dog-walking for their shut-in neighbour. Heck, why learn the neighbour's name, unless it's a hot individual or they need to borrow hair care product?
Maybe it's because I'm a curmudgeon who has spent 50 years fighting for affordable quality daycare, gender equality in the workplace, and a whole bunch of other leftie causes for women and children, but I don't quite GET women characters who are so self-absorbed that a broken nail or a canceled hair appointment constitutes a great blight upon their outlook.
Amen, Eleanor!
DeleteAmen, Eleanor! Agree with everything you said. Diana
DeleteAmen!
DeleteAbsolutely, Eleanor! You are my soul sister.
DeleteBooks like this are in my "I quit" pile. There may be a point, but I am not interested in plowing through the weeds to find it. There are several best sellers or best BookTok that fall in that category - enough that I don't follow BookTok recomendations.
DeleteFrom Celia: Thanks Eleanor, well put.
DeleteYup, she was all of that as well. I saw a video the other day of a young woman on social media fake crying about "Why did women decide they wanted to work? She doesn't want to...yada yada." I almost had a stroke.
DeleteAs the mother of three daughters, this is also a pet peeve. Not one of my kids acted like the major drama queens depicted in fiction and on screens these days. And it's disturbing that there are so very many such depictions. Give me a break. These are not role models by any stretch of the imagination.
DeleteSocial media shoulders some of the 'reality' blame, too, in my opinion. Like Jenn's example--my eyes rolled so far back in my head, I didn't think I'd be able to see again when I first saw that video. The whole 'influencer' phenomenon encourages the most vapid content (Flora)
DeleteThis is so true, we need to have a whole blog post just about this, Eleanor! I used to love what was called chick lit back in my 30s, but eventually got utterly fed up with characters with exactly the attitude you describe. I have the same problem with a lot of what I call "Oprah books"; 300 pages of the heroine suffering as her husband beats her, her housewash is away in the flood, the dog dies, etc, etc, and in the last 10 pages she finally gets on her feet and decides to take action to make her life better. I want to read books where those are the FIRST10 pages!
DeleteStanding ovation.
DeleteCan you hear me clapping???!!! We do need a whole post about this.
DeleteJulia, exactly!! 10 pages is enough. And if it is a romance or women's lit, I want to feel good when the book ends.
DeleteSo well said! So many of the characters I am reading now are as selfish as reality tv characters are.
DeleteAlthough I haven't [yet] come across too many books featuring unlikable/unsympathetic protagonists, I'm guessing that some internet influencers' behaviors may have a similar effect as reality television with regard to changing a reader's expectations in fiction.
ReplyDeleteThat is something I was wondering about too, Joan. Thank you. Diana
DeleteYES! I remember when the hooligans were little and YouTube influencers boomed. Hub and I were flummoxed on how to parent with this unexpected new and not awesome influence.
DeleteJENN: Sorry that you had such a bad reading experience with that hyped debut book.
ReplyDeleteUnlike many others, I haven't had cable TV in a decade. As a result, I have NOT watched most reality TV shows. No Survivor or Big Brother/Sister etc.
As for reading, I can read a book with an unlikable character. However, I don't think I can enjoy reading a book that has NO likeable characters!
GRACE:
DeleteDefinitely. I can read a book with an unlikable character if that character is a murder victim.
Diana
As Diana said, there is a place for unlikeable characters :)
DeleteWhile I love Diana’s practical approach to an unlikeable character, I have a problem with unlikeable characters who aren’t killed off early on, but rather remain alive for much of the book, bringing nastiness, pain and generally yuckiness to the other characters. (Can you say “run on sentence”?!) — Pat S
DeleteI've noticed books with unlikeable characters, and generally I don't finish them, because who wants to spend a lot of time with unlikeable characters? I avoid other books by the same author afterwards. Likewise, I never watched, after the first episode or two, some of the reality tv shows you mentioned for the same reason. But I don't think it's just reality tv. Some of the sit coms going back quite a few years were full of people insulting each other. Lots of put downs and canned laughter. And some of the movies as far back as Home Alone had families that spoke to each other in such insulting ways. I don't think social media has helped, either. Lots of room for people to be rude and unaccountable. With less and less positivie rolel models, I think it's a difficult culture for young people to grow up in and find their way in life.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right, Elizabeth. I still remember when I was a kid my parents were very clear about the three things you didn't talk about - politics, religion, and money.
DeleteElizabeth, when my kids were young I forbade them watching The Simpsons, for that exact reason. The dad was portrayed as a buffoon, and the kids were so disrespectful.
DeleteI've never watched reality shows (except for Strictly Come Dancing in the UK, which is all about the positive) and I've never liked most sitcoms. When did the stupid parents on sitcoms trend start? The 80s? And I couldn't people insulting each other.
DeleteI think it goes back farther, Deb. I Love Lucy, for instance.
DeleteI was thinking of All in the Family.
DeleteSo many great comments already on this post and it isn't even six AM! I've also started to read well-hyped books and put them down because I didn't want to spend my valuable reading time with those people in their world.
ReplyDeleteLike Grace, I don't watch reality shows. Never have, but I can see your point, Jenn, that sanctioned bad behavior on screen might have influenced how people act and what they are willing to read.
I've been lucky to have had editors/beta readers (Jay has been one, thank you!) who have steered my protagonist away from a snarky/nasty comment here, a sad-sack personality there. I wouldn't want to hang out with a person like that, and I don't want my readers to have to, either.
EDITH: Yes, there are limits for cozy mystery authors (like you) to be able to include truly unlikable characters who are not the murder victim. But a bit of snarky dialogue should be allowed, if it fits the person.
DeleteEdith, with so many books that I want to read, I do not have the time to books with awful characters (No redeeming traits) even if they are well hyped.
DeleteAnother thing is if there are Too many "F" bombs, then I stop reading the book.
Diana
I think there's an important difference between snark for the sake of sounding clever, and unlikeable traits that have deeper meaner or roots. I don't mind the second, as long as there is some payoff in the future!
DeleteAGREED, Roberta. Our friend Leslie Karst writes what she categorizes as "snarky cozies". In one book, Sally loses her sense of smell which is horrible for a chef. It makes perfect sense that Sally is grumpy & testy in this book.
DeleteA shout out from Edith? My Saturday is made!
DeleteYes. And I will throw a character under the bu because is has been years since the book came out. Bella in Twilight - when she was going to throw herself off a cliff because she couldn't be with Edward - not gonna lie - I was ready to nudge her. Mercy, talk about a whiny sad sack.
DeleteHow very many times I have wished to tell a character to stop kvetching!
DeleteWow! Good to know I am not the only person who feels this way, Jenn.
ReplyDeleteFew things:
First, I have noticed that I rarely like "hyped" books for whatever reasons from Unsympathetic characters to difficulties following the story. It is RARE when a book that I love would appear on the best seller list.
Second, Isn't "bestseller" subjective? How do we know that many people really liked the book or if many people bought the book because their book clubs picked that book?
Third, There was a certain author that I reviewed for NetGalley and after two tries, I noticed a common thread - misogyny, rudeness, Unkindness and awful characters. I avoid other work by that author. Forgot the titles though I recall the author's name. Never have been a guest here on JRW as far as I know.
Fourth, on a slightly different topic, there was a NonFiction novel (a second? or third? novel) by this author whose first non fiction was wonderful! I won't say the name or the title. I made the mistake of buying the book and NOT reading it before the Sign Language Interpreted event. The author taunted my handsome Interpreter. If I had read the book, then I would Never have requested an Interpreter for the event and probably throw it away in the bin. When I bought the book, I thought it was a sympathetic book in support of girls who did Not fit in. Unfortunately, the entire book was about how the author and her clique in High School were Cruel to this girl, who wound up committing suicide. The author never apologized. Did not seem to think they did anything wrong. Again, this is just my own Personal Opinion. Never have been a fan of cruelty. There was a sitcom where women are cruel to other women. Growing up, I knew many women who support other women. I cannot comprehend how anyone can be cruel to other people.
Fifth, I was talking at Bouchercon with several friends about WHY I am writing my novel. I want to write novels that I want to READ. Side note: Sometimes I would read a novel and if I do not like the ending (like the villain NOT getting their comeuppance), then I write a different ending in the book and the villain gets their comeuppance!
Fifth, has anyone noticed if books that they loved are Now out of print? There have been too many books that I loved that are Now out of print! I am grateful that I kept these books when I moved when I was donating many books to the library.
Sixth, Can someone please explain to me what the differences between the Three Stooges and Reality TV are? I stopped watching Reality TV years ago. I cannot believe that Reality TV does not employ writers. I often see behind the scenes where people say "the producer wanted us to do this" or "the producers edited out the truth" or something like that. How did they produce the Reality TV shows without writers? I am trying to figure this out logically. Or perhaps there is no Logic to Reality TV?
Diana
DIANA: Re: Three Stooges vs reality TV. I have never watched reality TV shows but have seen clips/previews online. The Three Stooges could be nasty/violent to each other but they were a comedy/vaudeville act. In Survivor or Big Brother/Sister, there is usually a competition. So the participants "willingly" act badly (cheating, backstabbing, insulting each other etc.) in order to win.
DeleteGRACE: Thank you.
DeleteDidn’t Reality TV originally sprung from a writer’s strike? I don’t know watch it, but it does seem like there must now be some writing or coaching at least to get what the producers think the audience wants.
DeleteCandid Camera is considered the first reality tV show, but obviously things have changed. And yes, it was the writer's strike in 2007 that caused the boom, but I'm sure the rise of YouTube and Influencers (I loathe that word) helped.
DeleteFew good things about YouTube, believe it or not are these: The Advent of YouTube gave Deaf filmmakers opportunities to showcase their talents as filmmakers and now there are Virtual Book Events on YouTube, sometimes Captioned.
DeleteRegarding Influencers, whenever I read in the newspaper about a famous Influencer on social media, I often know nothing about that account unless it is a Bookstagram account.
Diana
Great comments! I tend to not finish books in which the protagonist has no morals and no redeeming value. I can think of at least one author (no names, but no one here!) who I adore as a person, but whose books I will no longer read because I simply can't connect with any of the characters.
ReplyDeleteI know some, too! I always wonder why their editor hasn't said something.
DeleteGreat topic, Jenn. Sit coms had to have an edge in order to be funny, but one award winning, wildly popular one had such mean characters, we just couldn't watch. Reality TV is scripted in some way. It has influenced people's behavior as has the internet. I have not finished many books lately and have had similar experiences with popular books. That's why I trust JRW to suggest books and authors I will love;-)
ReplyDeleteAck, no pressure, Judy! LOL. I feel like the networks are wrong. With the rise of Ted Lasso, The Extraordinary Attorney Woo, and a new subgenre cozy fantasy (I'm reading Legends and Lattes - so good!) that's rising, I think readers/viewers are becoming weary of the constant nastiness.
DeleteOne can only wish!
DeleteYes! I loved LEGENDS & LATTES! Looking forward to BOOKSHOPS & BONEDUST.
DeleteLooking this up now!
DeleteI don't for the most part read cozies. They strike me as fantasy life snd a bit too saccharine for my taste. I’m looking for author suggestions for true mystery and police procedurals.
DeleteMystery as in modern stories, not Agatha Christie.
I have not ever watched even a clip from a reality TV show. However over the past twenty years I have been amazed by television shows starring recurring characters that I would not allow into my home. I remember years ago feeling surprised when our son explained the premise of a "great show" about a high school teacher who became a meth dealer, etc., etc... I understand the writing might have been great but as a schoolteacher as well as someone who lives in a rural area decimated by meth, I felt no need to investigate BREAKING BAD. (Clearly, it and many shows like it survived quite well without me.) It's a challenge these days to find any drama on television featuring people of good character.
ReplyDeleteI understand completely. My son loved Breaking Bad and I got SO STRESSED OUT watching it, also Walter's slide into his alter ego was terrifying to watch, potentially because I had a mom in my neighborhood who went from normal mother of three boys to a meth head after her divorce and it was gut wrenching to watch the decline. Just awful.
DeleteA lot of popular detective (and other) fiction features serotonin-challenged protagonists with dark histories, but there’s almost always an inner core of goodness. Agree completely about books with unlikeable characters - life’s too short to waste!
ReplyDeleteI always feel rewarded when there's redemption for a character.
DeleteI am raising a nerdy hand here! If you are looking for great characters who are "of good character" check out the newest Star Trek series, Strange New Worlds. So good, and you don't need to be a "Trekkie."
DeleteAgreed!
DeleteThanks for the tip... very much Trek over Wars but haven't tried SNW ... will go check it out!
DeleteAfter reading a summer's worth of airline passenger atrocities, I realize we live in a world of entitlement, where self trumps (sorry) a commitment to the well-being of others, or even following simple rules. I can predict with more than 90% accuracy which brand of car will blow through a stop sign. I'm not interested in reading about the self-entitled, the morally corrupt, the "my way or the highway" pompous idiots. I read about flawed characters, or characters with emotional baggage.
ReplyDeleteYes, there needs to be a character arc! What is the point of a book where the character doesn't grow?
DeleteOur book group read a book that had won an important prize. However, it had a narrator/main character who was NOT likable and made awful decisions and did some terrible things. We all shook our heads, wondering what the hype was about. I may not relate to all the choices a character makes, but I at least need to understand and have some sympathy for him/her/them. As for reality TV, I hate shows that set people up to have screaming arguments with each other. Why would anyone want to watch that? I like Chopped and other reality cooking shows.
ReplyDeleteI used to watch Cupcake Wars but got too anxious.
DeleteI know when I've passed on reviewing books, a lot of the times it is because the story is deeply uninteresting to me or the characters are so awful that the only legitimate review would go something like this: "This book and its characters are so gawd awful terrible that anyone who had a say in its creation and publication should be banned not only from the industry but from ever being allowed near a book again for fear of spreading the contamination.
ReplyDeleteBut that's why I pass on doing those reviews because they won't be getting published for sure. I read a book for review once that had already been published overseas and won a bunch of awards. I read it and wondered "What were those people thinking...because this book is awful." Another book had me thinking the couple who served as the main characters were such awful human beings that their quest to adopt a child should be shut down and they should never be allowed near any child ever.
I don't watch reality TV now. Though I did watch a couple of the seasons in the early going of The Real World, particularly the ones in Boston and San Francisco. I mean, I had to undergo decontamination afterwards, but I did watch. Oh, and Storage Wars for a while because it is like a car crash of truly awful people that you couldn't help but stare at as you pass by. I always laugh when people say they love or only watch reality TV. And when people try to get me to take the Kardashians seriously. When that happens I less than diplomatically (and rather profanely) remind that the entire Kardashian empire was built on back of that sex tape Kim was in and then her mother began pimping out the rest of the family with all the subtlety of a human trafficker...and yet they are worshipped not reviled.
I love TV and my viewing tastes are drastically different than a lot of people here (given the responses so far today, though I too didn't watch Breaking Bad) but if I had to watch reality TV or give up TV altogether...I'd be reading a LOT more books a year.
I, too, watched some of The Real World (it was MTV!) and Storage Wars and American Pickers (if we're counting that), but I will die having never watched an episode of the Kartrashians unless it's a hostage situation and I'm forced to.
DeleteForce me to watch Kardashians? Better stand back, the projectile vomiting won't be pretty. Never a fan of reality tv shows. (Flora)
DeleteHa ha, I am like FLORA. No interest in watching the Kardashians or any Real World shows.
DeleteOne rainy afternoon at my daughter's Miami apartment while she was working I turned on her TV out of sheer boredom. I watched with horror five minutes of The Kardashians, as one of the sisters gave another a bikini wax. No amount of brain bleach can ever restore whatever segment of my mind was destroyed.
DeleteI'll stick to reading, thank you. I'd rather reread even a boring book than to risk seeing something that brainless again.
Jay, your comments make my day. I'd really like to read some uncensored Jay reviews...
DeleteWhen it comes to writing a review, I only review books that I love. However, because I listen to so many audiobooks and Audible makes it so simple to drop a comment at the end, I confess that I have done a few with 3 star ratings. But, if I don't like a book at all, I will not review it.
DeleteKaren in Ohio, my TV once went haywire and changed channels on its own as it it was possessed and stopped at one of these channels showing "vomit" Reality TV. I tried to change the channel and had to call the repairman to fix the TV! LOL.
DeleteJudy, I only review books that I love. I want to share my joy of books.
Bad enough that some people do not like to read at all. I totally see what they mean when my book group picks a book that I cannot stand at all. I can always opt out. My first year of bookstagram I read many books I did not like. Now I'm more picky about my reading time and only read books that I like/love. I'm open to trying new authors and sometimes it is a new auto buy author.
Debs, Jay's comments are wonderful.
Grace and Flora, I feel the same way about not wanting to watch Reality TV.
Thinking we ALL could support the writers' and actors' strikes by REFUSING to watch Reality TV.
Diana
I tend to not read books that are on a snobby Prize list – Giller, Booker, Pulitzer as I find they are too often weird to be just weird or shocking to be shocking. It seems that the judges must have been told to review them on the following *insert whatever is the au courant theme here*. There was one a few years ago that won, and I learned more in the first chapter about sex and lust in one man’s gay life than I ever needed to know. As for plot – that was not coming up soon!
ReplyDeleteI live in Nova Scotia where I find that so many local writers who write about us will include that we are dumb, illiterate, drunken morons with possibly a heart of gold. Somewhere there will be a priest and the rape of 1) a child, 2) a choirboy, 3) the protagonist, never to be charged. The father will have disappeared/died, mother will be a poor widow with no education – you get the drift. If the father is alive, he will be a down trodden miner/fisherman, and they will live in a company house with no heat, or a trailer. This will be rerun in every book – it gets tiresome. I avoid several of these authors, even if one person in book club always recommends the book. (Now I don’t even read the book, just reiterate the same themes, and everyone thinks I read the drivel!)
Oy. Having summered in Nova Scotia most years for almost 40 years, I'm offended by the writers who would describe the residents that way. Humph. Maybe I need to set a book there and shake it up!
DeleteDo it, Jenn!
DeleteMargo, I've never read a book set in your province. Are there good ones I should start with?
MARGO: That's horrible from NS writers would describe the locals in that way!
DeleteEDITH: I can recommend the newest Camilla MacPhee book by our friend Mary Jane Maffini. It's a humorous cozy with Ottawa visitors Camilla & her new husband getting into mischief & danger during a nasty fall nor'easter in Cape Breton, NS.
Oops, forgot to include the title of MJ's book: You Light Up My Death, 2022.
DeleteThere are lots of good NS books but many are old. Hugh MacLennon, Thomas Raddall, New Brunswick author Beth Powning. A book that I read lately that I really enjoyed was Amanda Peters "The Berry Pickers". Lots of people seem to like Leslie Crewe - I like her essays, but not her books. Then for a great series set in Glace Bay, try Moira MacLeod - Book 1 "The Bread Maker". Avoid (in my opinion) Lynden MacIntyre and Ann Marie MacDonald.
DeleteAdding Mary Jane's NS books to my list. I read her Victoria Abbott mysteries. Diana
DeleteI’ve now realized that part of the reason I’m not such a fan of the book I am about to finish is probably that all the characters are unlikeable. It is quite clear that they are damaged goods and why that is. Despite not liking them, I still want to know how the events in the prologue tie in so I keep reading.
ReplyDeleteI often don’t like books that have had a lot of hype and also have no interest in the reality shows; I must not be the target audience.
You make me wonder how many reality TV watchers are readers...hmmm.
DeleteI know one, Jenn. High School English teacher, reads many books, watches all the reality shows, particularly the Housewife ones, and always reads People magazine cover to cover. Our tastes in books are generally not the same.
DeleteI agree that a lot of reality TV plays to the darker human impulses to gossip, watch conflict, and fingerpoint. I also believe those shows have their roots in the People Behaving Badly genre of talk shows led by Jerry Springer and Maury Povich, shows that celebrated and exploited extreme behavior on camera. Also then, the ridealong show "Cops" was at the height of its popularity.
ReplyDeleteIn hindsight, as I remember those shows, the vibe was--as the new term goes--punching down on the disadvantaged. IMO, of course.
There are classier reality shows, like cooking shows, that depict people working together, even competitors, and teach us. "Forged in Fire" the bladesmithing show was inspired by cooking shows. The now-defunct Hollywood makeup show "Face Off." "The Voice" was a singing show where the talent was pre-screened, so we didn't have to feel embarrassed for some contestants. And I've learned some from the various medical shows, too.
As with TV shows, no book is for everyone.
Very true, Rhonda. It's not very everyone and the punching down aspect of those daytime talk shows is spot on as well.
DeleteFrom Celia: First I’m sorry that your reading experience was nasty Jenn, but as usual you dig right into the heart by noting the importance influencers now have on our ‘free’ time. Time that we are being exhorted on every side to be used for our improvement in —- well you fill in the blank. Eleanor’s comment is right on the money. But for the author of fiction, in addition to bringing THE idea to life, they have a whole raft more n fact more like a regatta of people all of whom have some influence on the authors end result to get published. All this regatta trying to read the ‘popular’ vibe and encourages th author to consider their audience. Julia and I started discussing this yesterday on the what we read today as opposed to what we read in our teens, early adulthood, middle age and in my case cronedom. When I moved into adult reading in my teens, my only guides were friends, the Accra Library and my parents bookshelves packed with editions of a famous world wide book club whose books arrived monthly to their far flung homes. Now we are battered by the advice of others coming ay us as if we were somehow driving into traffic coming toward us on the CA highways. How did this happen, and in such a short time? I just had a light bulb moment. Here I’m writing a screed because I have the time. Time to sit, to think to enjoy everyone’s comments. I’ll apologize to all of you who wrote a succinct two or three lines, and to Jenn who will read this even though she might wish that I had less time.
ReplyDeleteI will always take the time to read your comments, Celia, even if it means I'll hit my daily word count later than usual!
DeleteNot apology necessary, Celia. You and Julia make an excellent observation about how tastes change and it makes me realize i was always the outlier. I never got into the shocking (V.C. Andrews) books that came out when I was in middle school and I never cared much for the teenage angst books (Deenie, etc) although I loved Judy Blume's Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing. And I do struggle to torture my characters. Maybe, I'm the problem. Ha!
DeleteCelia, I always love your comments. Never apologize!
DeleteCelia, I always love your comments. Diana
DeleteI read a couple books recently where all of the characters were totally unlikable. None by a debut author, though, who I may or may not forgive. But the worst was by a very popular author, one with a book out every year. I don't think those characters were intended to be terrible, but that's how they came across to me. I won't be in a rush to read that author's books again, although I've heard they are planning to retire next year.
ReplyDeleteIf this is a trend, and it may or not be based on my experience, I am not in favor of it and will choose books more carefully. Does this have anything to do with AI? Or the popularity of podcasts? Or so much twitter, etc? Who knows? I've never watched so-called reality shows - the promos for them are way more than I need to see.
Agreed. The promos do warn you away. I'm hearing of more and more authors who are retiring, which I can't imagine, but with the rise of AI...who knows?
DeleteI've not watched much Reality shows, or talk shows as I consider them mean and evil, nor do I watch a lot of news as it's so negative. I love your books Jenn and Edith as the characters are lovely, the stories really engaging to me, and promote real friendship, not to mention the mysteries are good. Thanks for writing the books that you do and don't stop. Mary from Ottawa, Canada
ReplyDeleteThank you, Mary! We appreciate you!
DeleteLast year I read a book with a horrible protagonist who had no redeeming qualities. She was completely self-centered, and ruined the lives of family and acquaintances. I can’t say she had any friends. She only associated with people that she could use. I kept hoping for a break-through moment in which she would at least realize that her “problems” were her own fault. But she did not change at all.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I should just stick to mysteries?
DebRo
At least with mysteries the bad person generally gets what they deserve, which is probably why we all write them. I felt that way when I tried to watch "Inventing Anna" - I liked the reporter but could not stand the character Anna - couldn't force myself to keep watching.
DeleteI cannot watch reality TV ( apart from
ReplyDeleteThe Amazing Race and Alone). Certainly not Real Housewives or Dance Moms. Life is too short to watch people behaving badly. Ditto for horrible characters. I have to root for my heroine Think Bridget Jones who is clumsy, awkward but still keeps trying and believing
And I’m pleased to say that my grandkids are into volunteering and sustainability. There is hope!
Yes, I feel like Bridget Jones was flawed in humorous ways that she tried to overcome. And there is a certain self-absorption that comes from being in your twenties and is appropriate. It's the willfully terrible behavior, really hurtful stuff, for no good reason that I can't abide.
DeleteReality shows? Does The Great British Baking Show qualify? It's the only thing I watch that even vaguely resembles a reality show, and I think I love it because of the LACK of sniping and nastiness and how genuinely hard the challenges are. It's essential sweet and supportive, with a cast of quirky contestants (I [heart] Nadiya)
ReplyDeleteThis year's #1 (or nearly) selling mystery novel is THE MAID. A counter-example? More in the spirit of Attorney Woo (which I adored) on the Korean TV series. Flawed, limited, but completely loveable. I agree, Jenn, for me the protagonist needs to be at best likeable and even more importantly relatable. But obviously not everyone does because otherwise how do you explain the success of GONE GIRL or GIRL ON THE TRAIN or YELLOWFACE?
I had to DNF Yellowface. While I love what the author was doing, it got to be too much (potentially because I am a writer?). I am going to double back and read Babel and her Poppy Wars books so there's a situation where I couldn't finish one book by an author but I am going to read more of her work because I did love the writing and the ruthless honesty in her character portrayals.
DeleteHALLIE: I watch Canadian version of GBBO. The website describes it as a cooking competition TV series, not reality TV. Maybe because the nastiness factor is toned down (or absent)?
DeleteThey did a few seasons of Great Pottery Throwdown (another British show) on MAX. You wouldn't think pottery could be so riveting, but it was fascinating and again, so positive. Maybe the Brits just do positive better? Of course they have a bunch of the other kind of reality shows, too, but I don't watch them.
DeleteI don't read a book with an unlikable protagonist who is witty and self-aware. A character who is self-aware is able to convince the reader that their background shaped them, and the necessities of their situation are why they are behaving the way they are. But I need to have other characters around to soften the blow.
ReplyDeleteTHE REAPER by Peter Lovesley is a brilliant example of this kind of book. A more contemporary, and less mannered version is AND WHEN SHE WAS GOOD by Laura Lippmann.
Adding those two to my TBR - thanks, Julia!
DeleteA thousand times no. Why would I want to spend even a minute of my time with unlikeable characters with no redeeming values? Even if the writing is fabulous, no thanks. Give the author all the prizes you want, just no. (Flora)
ReplyDeleteLOL, Flora, you cut right to it. Thank you.
DeleteWell, this is so brilliant, Jenn. I don't have to like characters but I DO have to be interested in them, or understand why they are doing what they are doing. It's SHALLOWNESS that gets me--that skimming over the surface of life, focusings on things that don't matter, thinking they deserve everything they want.
ReplyDeleteWe loved Bridget Jones, back in the day, though, right? Would we relate to her now? Hmm. It would be interesting to think about.
And I tried to watch real Housewives of New York, recently, without ever having watched any others, , because I wanted to see that person who had made J Crew cool. I lasted about ten minutes--I t was unbearable.
I loved The Maid, and Attorney Woo, and if you look at the NTY list, there are several "happy" books. But we did NOT live Billions--people were too unpleasant.
I think..careful here--people have been given permission to be awful, and it's all just coming out.
Yes, I think about how the newspaper business changed during the Hub's years as a music editor. It started with "Just write a great interview with Brian Wilson" and ended with "You need to pan this or that album/concert and anger the readers so we get clicks and comments." He was happy to tap out of that nonsense.
DeleteHank, it is the Shallowness that gets me too. Thank you for the word. I could not think of the right word to describe how I feel. That was one of the reasons I refused to continue reviewing that author whose books were full of F bombs, misogyny, and shallowness.
DeleteDiana
Hank: I concur. - Keenan
DeleteI do not watch reality shows. I do not read books with unlikable characters. I don't see any point to reading a book with characters I don't like; the characters are the book.
ReplyDeleteAgreed!
DeleteIt’s more anti-social media. With the ability to remain anonymous (not including myself), many times comments posted on websites have become personally vindictive.
ReplyDeleteWhat credentials do these ‘influencers’ have for their followers to listen to them about anything?
When you have a former head of state making crude, hurtful remarks about others, not being held accountable and still maintaining strong support, it’s not surprising that it has seeped into literature and viewing venues.
As far as books, I just stopped reading a book after about six pages because I didn’t like any of the characters and none of them liked each other. When you read for enjoyment, you expect to like something in the story. My preference is humor. Authors such as Donna Andrews and EJ Copperman
are genuinely humorous in their characterizations and stories, not at the expense of others.
One of the things I have liked about The Great British…is the interaction among the contestants. They are always supportive and helpful to each other.
I have found that British shows frequently have a way with comedies that is missing here, characters may be flawed but they tend to be portrayed as exaggerated traits rather than unlikeable people you can’t stand watching.
As Time Goes By is one of my favorites and I have rewatched the series a number of times. The humor is understated and even when there are differences of opinion within the story it is never portrayed with personal attacks, it usually the situation and how the characters deal with it. Of course anything Judi Dench does is wonderful.
Even the Amazing Race which I enjoyed watching for many years, I stopped because some of the contestants just became so nasty in what they said about their competitors and ways in which they deliberately did things to block some of the others. For me, the show lost the sense of competition and became more about who was best at scheming against another couple and being rewarded for it.
They gave in to the trend, apparently.
DeleteI agree. the British/Irish seem to embrace their flaws while also calling them out and being expected to do better, imho.
DeleteNothing new or earth shaking to add. Too many reality shows sound like narcissistic extended "selfies" where bad behavior is encouraged. I don't watch them with the exception of the Great British Baking Show, which is exceptional for the friendship and help. I'm wary of books and movies praised by critics. They must have very different standards. A friend and I saw The Piano years ago. There was not one nice person in that whole story. Not one. Bleah.
ReplyDeleteGBBS is my only "reality" watch and even then I get attached and it's crushing when someone has to leave the tent. :(
DeleteWhat a great post, Jenn, and such terrific comments. I'm going to be rereading and contemplating them. For me, characters can be complex, even difficult, but I have to feel there is some possibity of growth or redemption. And I find I am less tolerant of unlikeable protagonists than I used to be, I think because we now see so much nastiness and incivility and moral failure in the news and social media every day.
ReplyDeleteI truly believe we have hit saturation on awful people. I admit I will watch videos of people behaving badly (incredulously) and then I hate myself for it.
DeleteThank you, thank you, thank you!!!!
ReplyDeleteI've read some blog posts over the last couple of years and heard authors talking in other places about how they shouldn't have to make their characters likable. I'm often the lone voice in the comments saying, "If there is no one I can root for, I won't enjoy your book, so I probably won't be reading it." I get that characters can have moments when they are unlikable. I have moments when I don't like myself very much. And I also understand the character arc. But again, there has to be some reason I would want to spend time around these characters.
As to reality TV, I do watch Survivor, which typically has a good mix of people, aka someone to root for. I do like most of the contestants on The Amazing Race. But if you want to watch a truly enjoyable show, check out Lego Masters when it comes back for the new season in a few weeks. It's amazing what the contestants are able to build for some very hard challenges. And I love the way the teams bond. Heck, the judges sometimes get upset when they have to eliminate someone. It doesn't have any of that nastiness.
I've never gone in for the truly vicious watch us sit around and be mean to each other reality shows.
And I will second what so many others have said as well about other things like sitcoms where the characters insult each other, daytime shows, and the internet, are also causing this trend. I've got to admit, I am finding it impacting me more and more every day as I feel like I am dealing with people who are constantly out for themselves with no idea how any of their behavior is impacting those around them. It's frustrating.
Thank you for being that lone voice. As a writer, I don't want to spend time with characters I don't like so I can't imagine expecting a reader to. It boggles.
DeleteCollege lit major here! Reading all of the comments today made me think about Becky Sharp. She was a character who had some truly terrible traits, only acting in her own self interest. But, she was offset by good-hearted characters. In the end, she came through in a thoroughly surprising way. I LOVE this blog.
ReplyDeleteMe, too, Judy!! — Pat S
DeleteAnd I imagine that was the writer's purpose. I will stay in for a side character that I like. Absolutely. And I do love second chance and redemption stories!
DeleteMy book club recently discussed this issue, prompted by a highly-rated best seller which had NO positive or redeemable characters. They all were awful, and we hated the book.
ReplyDeleteWe are 50+ with diverse opinions on politics, religion and lifestyles. Maybe we should stick to reading your mysteries.
Reality shows have no appeal for me. They aren’t “real” at all. It’s tough surviving on a deserted island with only a camera crew. 🙄
This was a great subject and I would like to see
‘more.
Thank you. I was a little nervous about posting this blog but we're all readers here. I figured it was a safe space to fume. LOL.
DeleteI heard a podcast recently and they were discussing a deal breaker for them in a book. What trope couldn't they stand to read and I couldn't think of one for me until I was reading a very popular book this week and it hit me, I hate reading about young women who are very unlikeable and shallow and then gets her HEA with a great guy who is attracted to her immediately while she is still being shallow and pretty useless. We see that kind of person celebrated on social media, while behaving selfishly and rudely, daily and reading about them in fiction is not enjoyable for me plus it perpetuates the idea that this behaviour is something to emulate as it doesn't seem to keep them from what they want in life.
ReplyDeleteUgh. I read one recently like that and I thought, "Dude, if you fall for her, you get what you deserve."
DeleteThis has been a great post filled with very insightful comments. Thanks, Jenn, for apparently accessing a lot of pent-up thoughts and feelings for many of us.
ReplyDeleteI am on the same page (pun intended) as most of you. I don’t watch reality TV because I think it brings out the worst in most people. I don’t like books with unlikeable characters who aren’t the selected murder victim. (My sister is still incredulous that I didn’t care for a book she gave me written by a very popular - and good - author who had a character who brought down everyone he interacted with, most especially his family. I couldn’t “get over” it, as she suggested I do.)
To get a bit more serious, I can’t help but look at what happened in Nazi Germany (and other autocratic regimes) where the first thing they did is go after the educated people - the professors, clergy, et al - because those people would raise the alarm about what is happening. Then come the book bannings, burnings, etc. The leaders want unquestioning followers. To me, reality TV (Paris Hilton back-in-the-day, the entire Kardashian family, “Real” Housewives, ad nauseam) is dumbing down our society which makes us vulnerable to all kinds of bad things. Okay, off my soapbox for today… — Pat S
I'm with you, Pat. Instead of ratings for "adult content" they should have ratings for "how dumb will watching this show make you". I remember I refused to let my boys watch Duck Dynasty because I was afraid they'd lose brain cells - you're only born with as many as you'll ever have, after all.
DeleteAgree with most of the above comments. I don't watch reality TV. I frequently don't finish books with unlikable characters. But I would like to recommend a book. The Fourth Turning is Here, by Neil Howe, is not a novel. It is an examination of history and the changes in behavior of people. We are again at the point we were in the 1930's, a crisis time, so the Nazi behavior is back again. I found the book so insightful.
ReplyDeleteI thought of a good example of how characters can potentially ruin something good. The first time I saw THE EMPEROR'S NEW GROOVE, I struggled to like it. Why? The emperor was so obnoxious, I could hardly stand him. I knew he was going to change by the end and it would all be okay, but he was driving me crazy.
ReplyDeleteGranted, it's a movie, not a book, so you don't have to spend as long with the characters. And I did like the other characters, so I stayed in the theater. By the time it ended, I was okay with the character, and I'd enjoyed it overall.
But here's the interesting thing. When I watched it again, I fell in love with the movie, and I quote it all the time. Once I knew how things ended, I could handled how obnoxious he was to begin with, and I could laugh at the jokes.
I'm not saying they should have done the movie differently, but I feel like it's a perfect example of how a bad character can potentially ruin something good, even when there are other good characters around them, and they do have a redemption arc.
I get that, Mark. I have had books/shows/movies I couldn't lock in on and quit and then time passes, I try again and suddenly I'm fully invested.
DeleteLong-time reader of this blog and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate reading these comments from everyone. They are thoughtful and respectful even though the topic is about negativity and dislike. It really gives me hope for our world. I often feel like the outlier in my world (family/friends) because I do not like mainstream tv and books because of the intense negativity (thankfully shows like Ted Lasso and the GBBS are taking root and I am hearing more people talk about loving them). I am just grateful to have found this blog (after discovering Hank’s books last year, which led me here to JRR!🙂). Reading it each day/week is a breath of fresh air for me!
ReplyDeleteSocial media is a mixed bag, For me, I get to have conversations with my favorite author. For example, if I really loved a recent book, I can write to the author via social media something like "Wonderful. book! I loved your book. "
ReplyDeleteThere is the issue of civilized behavior too. I was reminded of a talk show where the hostess said that all of the people in her audience are to be treated as if they were guests in her living room. Be kind to each other. I try to do that in my social media interactions. If I am feeling grumpy or feel like swearing like a sailor, then I give myself a timeout. No social media. Same for headaches.
Diana
I noticed this trend towards unlikeable protagonists several years ago - in fact, one of those books resulted in the only negative review i have ever left on Amazon. The book actually made me mad! ! stuck through because i wanted to find the answer to the mystery. -which was a good hook - but my time spent with the characters was excruciating. Soon after, I read another "best seller" - with similar issues. So I basically have turned away from the "best seller" list, and read more genre fiction that doesn't make the list. I am also much more circumspect about reading back cover copy and reviews to make sure i don't end up with another of those books. And I don't buy any books by an author i don't know without first downloading a sample and reading it.
ReplyDeleteI think your premise re: reality TV is interesting. I only watch reality TV that is more competative (Project Runway, Top Chef, etc.). Interestingly enough, there was a great article on Top Chef around it's 20th season anniversary recently, where the producers mentioned they played up the "drama" and rivalry stuff early on - but found it was turning off viewers, so they pivoted away from that. Good call on their part!