A long-delayed announcement: Melinda O, you are the winner of BOURDAIN: The Definitive Oral Biography! Please contact Celia at wakefieldpro at gmail!
HALLIE EPHRON: Earlier this week we talked about villains – is a good villain anything like law-breakers in real life? Which got me thinking about VICTIMS. What makes a “good” victim in a crime story?
I ask this because just the other day I was watching a TV mystery episode and realized, with a sinking heart, which character was about to be killed off. I had to turn the thing off. Seriously. I liked that character SO much and it just, well, did not seem fair.
I did not want to keep hanging out in that world, even though I know full well it's ficton.
I know, ridiculous thing to get upset about, but there you are.
Which got me wondering: Have you ever realized that you have the WRONG VICTIM? That you thought you needed to kill them off but, in fact, it was a bad idea and you needed to rework your plot?
HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN: Yes! Precisely. I was writing TRUTH BE TOLD, and even though I am a devout pantser, I knew I had to kill a certain person, I knew it, it was absolutely necessary. The whole story revolved around that death. Turned out, um, it didn’t. More I cannot say.
(But like you, Hallie, this is one of the hilarities of our household. We will be watching something, and I’ll point to the screen and say: DEAD. Jonathan is always somewhere between amused and annoyed. I am so sorry, though, I cannot help it.)
RHYS BOWEN: I found out pretty early on that I can’t kill a child. When I was writing Evan’s Gate ( that actually got an Edgar nomination to my surprise) I had planned for two little girls to die the same way. I couldn’t do it. One died by accident and the other stayed alive.
I always know who is going to be killed as the WHY is at the center of the story.
JULIA SPENCER-FLEMING: I wrote about the death of a child - not by murder! - and was actually sobbing the whole time. So I agree with Rhys; no kids and no dogs or cats as victims!
Because I like writing about social issues and communities, I usually prefer victims whose loss will have a strong impact on the other characters.
One thing that drives me absolutely BONKERS when watching movies/series is when a victim’s whole existence and death serves to motivate the enraged and grief-stricken detective. 99 times out of 100, the decedent is a woman and the detective is a guy.
C’mon, screenwriters, there are ways for your male characters to access their emotions without fridging their girlfriends.
LUCY BURDETTE: I’m thinking back on the last four or five books and seeing a pattern–I don’t necessarily like the victim. Which really is a little lame when you think of it–what kind of mystery is that? But it’s hard for me to let the good guys go…
Hank, that’s so funny. I’m usually completely clueless because I get caught up in the story, rather than figuring out whodunit.
JENN McKINLAY: Victims can be so sensitive! I once had a victim who refused to die and I had to rewrite the entire book and then he became a recurring character in the series. I’m glad he didn’t die because he really made the series so much better but at the time, I was like “Dude, you have to die! Cooperate!”
He didn’t.
DEBORAH CROMBIE: I've never thought I had the wrong victim, but there have been some that I really really really did NOT want to kill. But if had I changed the victim, I would have had no plot, so I just had to cry my way through it.
HALLIE: So how about you? Can you sense when a character you've gotten attached to is about to get bumped off? Does it make you keep reading (or watching), or is it your signal to bail?
What an interesting question. Although I can see where the story is going [and am devastated that the character that I really like is about to become a victim], I grumble and cry and keep on reading. Watching is different . . . I just turn it off because I don't want to see it happen . . . .
ReplyDeleteOh goodness, that's what I do, too!
DeleteI don't like to read about the death of a child, which is definitely problematic if you're reading history, when child survival rates were so low. (I thought you handled it very well, Julia.) Still, one of the several reasons I am ambivalent about the novels of Elizabeth George, despite her skill as a writer, is that she kills children fairly often. I was particularly annoyed when she put us inside the mind of a frightened little girl and some chapters later that child was revealed as dead. (Selden)
ReplyDeleteI'm glad I didn't read that Selden!
DeleteI even have trouble with children as plot points (they get kidnapped or abused or ...) - Even when I tell myself IT'S FICTION I can't get past it.
DeleteThere are so very many authors and books and series to choose from that, as a reader, I have no trouble dropping a series or an author. I think that it is fine for a reader to be indignant about the death of a character, or their mangling, or their going bad ( like L.P.'s Jean Guy did.)
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, an author can kill anyone in a stand alone. Anyone. But in a series, you might lose me as a reader if you kill someone I deem to be essential. I'll be the one who decides if I want to continue to read your books.
We can do nothing about the stuff we see on the news. But I want justice served at the end of every book these days.
Yes!! Well said Judy.
DeleteAnd yet so many sleuths in mysteries have long ago losses (Think MONK's wife...) that drive them in the present. SOmehow that works for me.
DeleteSometimes we will watch something together, and I will point out the murderee to Steve. I usually get it right, based on the imperfections shown onscreen. It's more fun to not be able to figure it out, unless the victim is a kid, or otherwise more vulnerable than most. These days, I have a low tolerance for cruelty, even the fictional kind.
ReplyDeleteI think our antennae are primed to detect cruelty because we're seeing so much of it in the news. Passed off as patriotism.
DeleteNo kids or pets as victims. Beloved cars totaled? It's a shame, but sacrificing a vintage Aston Martin might give the plot a boost that a rusting fifteen-year-old Civic wouldn't.
ReplyDeleteI published a Halloween short story about the self-appointed chairperson of the town yard police committee who is trapped in a screaming coffin with dry ice, which almost kills her (carbon dioxide displaces oxygen in a closed chamber). She doesn't deserve to die but learns her lesson.
That would not be my favorite way to go! But doesn’t the dry ice burn her horribly?
DeleteYikes. What a way to go.
DeleteOh yes, I've stopped reading when a character I care about is about to die--and might forsake a series on account of this. I threw a book in the trash once because of the victim(s)--never finished it, didn't want anyone else to read it either! Martha Grimes' Richard Jury series has involved the death of children at times, but in one of my favorite novels in the series, a would-be child victim refuses to die--I love that little girl! I recall reading that JK Rowling seriously thought about killing off the Ron Weasley character--poor Ron, he deserved a happier ending!! And Deborah, I've mentioned before one of your books where a character dies and I mourned his death--and that's the whole thing for me--some writers create such vivid characters that it hurts when they become a victim.
ReplyDeleteI think it was Ron’s brother who died in the battle against Voldemort in Harry Potter?
DeleteRight. A lot of the Good Ones die in the final HP book. But I'd already felt the heartbreak in a much earlier book when Sirius Black was killed. Nooo...! Not him! Harry had finally found someone to be a father figure to him. Sigh.
DeleteYes, Susan, I agree. But I didn't stop reading the Harry Potter books after Rowling killed Sirius Black. I did stop reading Faye Kellerman's series after she mutilated Peter Decker's daughter from his first marriage when she had just become a rookie police officer.
DeleteI've read and reread the Harry Potter books but I always skip over the final part of THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX because that's where Sirius Black dies. So many of the most memorable ones die in the final book. Dumbledore's death is hard to "watch," too.
DeleteLupin!
DeleteI would never murder a child or an animal, but in my Quaker Midwife series several babies died, due to accuracy of the era. Once I'd planned for premature twins to die and I just couldn't do it, so only one did.
ReplyDeleteI have certainly changed the villain during the course of writing a book, but I don't think I've changed the victim. As Jenn said, you'd have to rewrite the whole story.
yup it all revolves around the victim... though, in the case of "mistaken identity"... but the unknown "twin" has always seemed ham-fisted to me.
DeleteI’m in the No children or Pets/animals club here. Yes, I have stopped reading some books when animals or children have been killed. I find it disturbing enough in real life. I read to escape.
ReplyDeleteNo children pets or animals club (NCPAC) - I'd belong to that, too.
DeleteCan someone please explain WHY women often are murder victims in mysteries???
ReplyDeleteSomeone mentioned Elizabeth George. My mom loved the inspector Lyndley series until a recurring character ( one of our favorites) was killed. We Stopped reading the series!
For me, I usually know who the murder victim will be because of how the story is written. My favorite murder victims are bad people who get their comeuppance like the dastardly character in MURDER ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS. A more recent example is by a new author ? Kay Brett? About a female serial killer who kills men like Harvey Weinstein.
Like many, I cannot read a novel where a child, a person with disabilities or a pet is murdered.
Orient express... good example
DeleteI'm with Judy Singer. If you kill off a series favorite character with no apparent background for doing so I'm done. You could put them in ICU as you unravel the villain, but you'd better resuscitate them or I'm outta there. Many other series know better than to do that and I can turn to them to ease the pain of what you did to that dear character.
ReplyDeleteI know sometimes babies, children and pets must die, but it guts me to read it and I am relieved to know it pains authors to write it. It makes a strong statement that authors innately feel the most pain when the innocents - adult, child or animals die. I cannot imagine what it must take out of you to write those scenes.
Jenn, I swear I can just see you sitting at the computer arguing with your character to die! And laughed when I learned the character won. Reckon that reminds us that a good author listens to where her characters take her. -- Victoria
Victoria, I want to know which book Jenn is referring to and which character. I've read them all, Jenn, so fess up!
DeleteMe too! Jenn??
DeletePaula B here ~ I read “Killers of a Certain Age”. Women over 60. Awesome.
ReplyDeleteI like the books where the character is not liked by almost everyone and anyone could have murdered the victim. But sometimes the author has a motive for everyone and it is just a total random pick to determine the murderer. The murderer should have clues and motive the others don't.
ReplyDeleteWatching TV shows, my hub and I can generally tell who will be knocked off because that is the one who everyone dislikes.
There is a BBC show called BEYOND PARADISE set in a stunningly beautiful British seaside town. The story involves a local police dept (4 people). The location is charming, the cast is charming, the stories this year have switched from someone getting murdered to a mystery that is happening but no one dies. I actually like it as I am getting rather tired of crime shows being about murder.
Several of my books have no murders in them. You don't need a murder to make a good mystery novel. But I don't think you can get away without a villain.
DeleteI'm still trying to get past the demise of Nicola Walker's character....DCI Cassie Stuart...in the British series "Unforgotten".The writers killed her off via a car accident 4 years ago. I was so disappointed that Walker was leaving the show that I stopped watching the program the following season. I eventually returned to the series because I missed Sanjeev Bhaskar's character...DI "Sunny" Khan.. too much. Now if they start toying with the idea of killing off Sunny in a future episode I would have to say "Houston, we have a problem" and bow out of watching "Unforgotten" forever. It's amazing how one can get so attached to a fictional character!
ReplyDeleteI think sometimes it's a staffing decision - the actor or actress can't continue with the show or is asking for too big a raise. Remembering when there was so much speculation about how/when a character would leave Downton Abbey.
DeleteThere is a phenomenon called the "red shirt" phenomenon at play here. That is actually a reference to a scene in one of the funniest movies ever made, Galaxy Quest, made by Sam Rockwell, playing a character named Guy Fleegman, an actor who was a minor character on one episode of the underlying tv show, but wound up as part of the bigger adventure in the movie, and wore a red shirt because that was what expendable actors wound up wearing. So whenever my wife and I watch a tv show, or read a mystery boo, one of the challenges is anticipating which character is wearing the red shirt. Basically what Hank was talking about in her comment above.
ReplyDeleteI remember watching Star Trek, if there was a new "officer" on the bridge you knew they'd be a victim in that episode. PS I LOVE GALAXY QUEST!!
DeleteIn The Curtain Falls in Paris, the first in the Aria Nevins/Noah Roche books, the murder victim appears once: dead! We learn about her life, her secrets, but we never experience her alive. In the first sequel (working title: Murder at Hotel Gloriosa), the victim is introduced as a corpse. We never know him as a living person, but learn a lot about his character as the story moves forward. And I agree: children and animals are absolutely off-limits.
ReplyDeleteMany moons ago before the writing world became homogenized a friend asked me why I read so many British mysteries. It was because in the Brit books of the time, you met everyone, all the suspects, sleuth, AND the victim. By the time the death (murder) (mayhem) occurred you had a relationship with the victim, loved or hated them, and it changed the way I looked at the book.
ReplyDeleteSomeone above asked why women are often the victim in murder mysteries. Could it be the majority of women are "easier" to kill when the murderer is a guy? Unless you run into a woman who is a complete butt-kicker, the guy is "usually" (though not always) physically bigger and more than likely stronger. Plus, apparently the male killers are usually smart enough to not go after a guy who might be bigger, stronger and faster than they are.
ReplyDeleteI've never understood the "can't kill kids" idea in mysteries. I'm not saying start an epidemic of child deaths in mysteries or anything, but it's not like it never happens. Okay, sure I don't want to see dogs killed like most of you either so my train or line of thought here is a bit jumbled. But kids die by other than natural causes all the time. And wouldn't the death of child stimulate your detective, be they male or female, all that much more to being emotional enough that they would push on and solve the case to bring the killer to justice or death by lead poisoning. Even more so than if they were working a case of an adult victim? Think I'm wrong? What about all those TV news reports where they report, "Four people died in a car crash in Rural Eastbumthumb today, including 2 children."
Listen if I'm ever going out in a car crash, I don't want to be playing second fiddle in the story of my death. Just say four people, because I'm a victim too. HA! (sarcastically said).
I do enjoy a good killing when the victim is someone who just NEEDED to die, but I like all different avenues one can take to offing the victim and then discovering who done it and why did they do it. I mean, when Joffrey died in Game of Thrones, who can argue that it was one of the most richly deserved deaths in cinematic history. Even if we had to wait a few seasons who really offed the little demonspawn.
Oh, yes, Jay, when Joffrey died. He was the worst! And yes, WTAFP, seems like some characters have a big red arrow pointing at them, right?
ReplyDeleteFrank and I love to watch murder mysteries and predict who's going to die. The arrogant, obnoxious person must die. The seemingly harmless person who seems to be everywhere is wearing a red shirt. I hate it when the good person is the victim. That long running Walking Dead had a lot of good people die, and not enough bad ones. My husband gets quite pissy at how many mysteries feature cops/PIs who are "damaged" and turn to the bottle. You know, there are "normal" ones out there.
ReplyDeleteI have refused to read/buy two mystery series any longer since I heaved the significant entry across the room after the authors killed off two characters who, I thought, were integral to the series. (Now I have to catch my breath after that paragraph.). With some time having passed, I now wonder how wise that was. I’ll never know how the two series will continue.
ReplyDeleteI've only changed the first victim once, but I've changed a later victim numerous times. I remember one instance when I knew if I killed off that character as planned, my readers would be in an uproar, so my plan changed. Another time, the final victim simply refused to die. We writers don't have as much control over our stories as readers might think.
ReplyDelete