tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post3199099630130902601..comments2024-03-28T19:36:39.783-04:00Comments on Jungle Red Writers: Reds Writing Rules: Our HooptedoodleJungle Red Writershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16646429819267618412noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-8243104025637769652014-08-02T10:19:00.419-04:002014-08-02T10:19:00.419-04:00It bothers me when an author expects you to rememb...It bothers me when an author expects you to remember everything from a previous book in order to understand the current one. Obviously major plot elements are fine, but details and minor characters are another matter. It's probably been at least a year since the last book and I've read maybe 100 books in that time, so give me a break.Barbaranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-19928596593154885242014-08-01T19:24:37.788-04:002014-08-01T19:24:37.788-04:00I loathe and despise (yes, I know it's redunda...I loathe and despise (yes, I know it's redundant, but that's how I feel.) present tense. I have picked up a book because the synopsis sounds good, but can't read it. <br />I also don't like it if there's no fair play. I don't like changing POV in the same scene...usually. I have read a couple of things when it was done by a master and it increased the suspense. But it's so rare. Usually it's just a pain. :)Ann Metterthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02290723620871351744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-49297801523446113062014-08-01T18:19:44.652-04:002014-08-01T18:19:44.652-04:00Shifting POV - I do hate to be reading something a...Shifting POV - I do hate to be reading something and realize I don't know whose mind I'm in. If I like the book, I'll go back and reread and make more of an effort. If not, I'll pick another book from the stack. But it's not a hard and fast rule for me as a reader. As Kristopher said - if it feels natural, it's fine with me. I have read numerous books where the characters are so distinct, or so real to me that I'm never in doubt. <br /><br />Twins - OK <br />Doppelgangers - too creepy<br /><br />Sex change - I had a difficult time "Believing the Lie. <br /><br />If I get the urge to go Google something while I'm reading, it's no a good thing. <br /><br />What Charlie said about foreign languages! If you use a long quote in a foreign language, please give the source. Umberto Eco often makes me feel under-educated if not downright stupid. On the bright side he introduced me to Isaac Luria.<br /><br />So I guess I'll put up with a lot of broken rules. If an author gives me a book with a good plot, and characters I can feel <i>something</i> for, I'll keep reading. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> Sharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-19403224722954413882014-08-01T17:18:22.154-04:002014-08-01T17:18:22.154-04:00I'm only fussy about rules when the writing is...I'm only fussy about rules when the writing is sloppy, boring, and too lazy (Really? A stupid secret?). Like any other artistic endeavor, learning your craft means mastering the rules, then breaking them for the sake of creating something interesting. When this is done brilliantly, we don't notice. When this is done occasionally by an author we love, we can hunch a shoulder and keep reading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-13328816166385092912014-08-01T14:12:49.517-04:002014-08-01T14:12:49.517-04:00What stops me reading (or at least starts me skimm...What stops me reading (or at least starts me skimming) is long paragraphs of theorizing about how the crime was committed, and by whom. Especially if there's a time element involved, and it's multiple options in the vein of "well, if X was here and Y was there at this time, then one of them could've gotten to point C in so much time but not both of them unless ..." Such passages usually confuse me, even though I'm good at following details through a story. If you don't trust your readers to see some of the scenarios, and can't work the more complicated ones into the story less painfully, then may I respectfully request some revising and editing? (She said with a smile!)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14431306874256373252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-2322304495550855062014-08-01T14:03:59.214-04:002014-08-01T14:03:59.214-04:00Not sure if you would consider it a rule or not bu...Not sure if you would consider it a rule or not but one thing that I really have a problem with is foreign word/phrases being overused. A word or short phrase peppering a characters speech or used as descriptive is fine, especially if it fits the location and the reader can easily understand the meaning. <br /><br />But, I recently was reading something where a short conversation took place between two characters in French. (Maybe a total of 12 lines of dialog.) The conversation was not translated in any way, even by having it summarized for the third person in the scene. I had no idea if I was missing something important to plot or was it just a "throwaway" conversation. By the time this type of thing happened for the third time I gave up on the book.<br /><br />A smattering of words, especially common ones, is one thing. To pull the reader out of the story by making them wonder what is going on in a conversation is another.Charlienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-58070767944429275122014-08-01T13:49:48.933-04:002014-08-01T13:49:48.933-04:00What a great post! Hallie, the want versus need a-...What a great post! Hallie, the want versus need a-ha'd for me as I read your text. Makes total sense -- there should be an underlying ache that propels the protagonist.<br /><br />I, too, know who you're talking about with the sliding POV, and I noticed it too. I wondered how she got it away with it for the first novel, before all the awards and etcetera. Still bothers me, but I think she's gotten a little more subtle about it over the years.<br /><br />I've got this thing about theoretical questions. I feel lazy when I do that--signal that there's something more to mine at that point.Lisa Alberhttp://www.lisaalber.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-32613444624042022142014-08-01T12:57:29.026-04:002014-08-01T12:57:29.026-04:00I also have a pet peeve when it's confusing wh...I also have a pet peeve when it's confusing who is i. There is an Australian author who has wonderful stories but I get confused as in who is who and I find myself stopping in the middle and going back pages to see how that character was introduced.<br /><br />When I read, I do not have a rule in mind. Why would I stop reading a novel? If the story is too difficult to follow or the characters are not interesting.<br /><br />There was one YA series that I stopped reading because I felt like that character in the movie "Stranger than Fiction". I felt the author did not play fair. In retrospect, I think this series was written by formula and outlines then a team of writers filled in the rest of the story.<br /><br />There are books that my intellectual great aunt would call "bubble gum" for the brain.<br /><br />There are many books that I love because of the well-written character development.<br /><br />~DianaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-18648495900399621962014-08-01T12:46:21.987-04:002014-08-01T12:46:21.987-04:00As Kristopher and Hallie pointed out, good writing...As Kristopher and Hallie pointed out, good writing can commit a multitude of writing sins and come up reading like silk. I like that all the Jungle Reds have an open-minded attitude towards "rules," and your writing reflects how breaking rules can be done effectively. <br /><br />I'm a fan of alternating chapters for different points of view, as it leaves no doubt whose mind you've entered. I don't like sliding points of view, but, Edith and Hallie, I agree that the author referenced is brilliant and folds it into amazing stories. <br /><br />I have a pet peeve about dialogue when it's confusing who is speaking. It's the rapid fire dialogue that I sometimes have to go back and follow the lines again to determine who said what. That is probably just a failing of mine and not the author's. I may be so engrossed in the scene that I'm reading it too fast, but it still bugs me. <br /><br />Oh, and Hank, those silly secrets are completely annoying. Bev, I am troubled by historical inaccuracies, too. There is a popular male author who, when asked about such, stated he gets some of it right and makes up the rest. Arghhhh! And, yet, his books are good reading. I, too, like it when an author includes a statement about changing historical details, and I would be quite happy if all authors would abide by this habit. Of course, there can be unintentional mistakes, but I like authors to at least care about it. The Jungle Reds are top drawer in their attention to detail. Kathy Reelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17004247271452356577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-53116223299506167302014-08-01T12:31:01.115-04:002014-08-01T12:31:01.115-04:00Bev,I'm with you about inaccuracy in both time...Bev,I'm with you about inaccuracy in both time and place. When I read something I know is wrong I can never finish the book. There is no excuse for poor research these days--although we all make silly slips from time to time (me included)Rhysnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-330523872183797262014-08-01T12:15:57.418-04:002014-08-01T12:15:57.418-04:00Thanks so much for the shout-out, Hallie! It was m...Thanks so much for the shout-out, Hallie! It was my privilege to be your chauffer and go-to workfellow during AWW. We love having you visit Yellow Springs.<br /><br />I’ve had these discussions often, too (and not only at the fabulous AWW week!) And while I agree most rules are made to be broken (weather, dreams), I’m with the Reds on some of these:<br /><br />Rhys: I never manipulate character to fit the plot. (Characters drive my stories, and they take me such interesting places!)<br /><br />Hank: I would never have a stupid secret…(HATE when a story does that.)<br /><br />And like Deborah, I’m with the Reds about changing viewpoint within a scene – even though POV is one of my stumbling blocks. <br />clpauwelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17593765516891634999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-58371396134239384012014-08-01T11:36:11.470-04:002014-08-01T11:36:11.470-04:00My biggest pet peeve is inaccuracy in historical n...My biggest pet peeve is inaccuracy in historical novels/mysteries. If the author makes an obvious error (like placing a character in the wrong century or having them married to the wrong person) then I don't feel the need to finish their book. I have started many books only to put them down when it becomes obvious that the author had not taken the time to do their homework/research. Thankfully, you ladies are not in that category! It's different if, like Sharon Kay Penman does sometimes, the author puts a disclaimer in her/his note that they moved an event or character to advance the plot. At least then the reader knows that the author knew what they were doing.Bev Fontainenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-88517745760384842912014-08-01T11:12:57.404-04:002014-08-01T11:12:57.404-04:00Just have to mention that one of my favorite ever ...Just have to mention that one of my favorite ever mysteries is about twins--Brat Farrar by Josephine Tey. I'm not sure anyone else could do a twin plot as well!Deborah Crombiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988750789088153601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-63946660557713537712014-08-01T10:33:30.081-04:002014-08-01T10:33:30.081-04:00I've learned so much from all of you! Hallie, ...I've learned so much from all of you! Hallie, one thing you taught me is to make sure my character is smart -- I was sending someone in to a dark alley without a very good reason. I always think of that as I write. Sherry Harrishttp://sherryharrisauthor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-39024282164698241352014-08-01T10:32:14.646-04:002014-08-01T10:32:14.646-04:00A page and a half of back and forth dialogue, with...A page and a half of back and forth dialogue, with no break, can leave me wondering "okay, WHO is speaking here?" I'll go back to earlier in the chapter and try to mentally track the conversation.<br /><br />Changing POV bothers me, too. I tend to avoid reading books that do that, unless it is made very clear at the beginning of the chapter that we are now seeing a different character's point of view. It is just frustrating when it happens mid chapter or mid page.<br /><br />I don't like it when characters have similar names, unless it's going to advance the story in some way.Two of my relatives have had the same first and last name as someone else in the community, people with less than stellar reputations. It created some embarrassing situations for my law-abiding relatives!<br /><br />Deb Romanonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-45060341566658798612014-08-01T10:15:23.184-04:002014-08-01T10:15:23.184-04:00The problem for me with the POV thing is that I no...The problem for me with the POV thing is that I notice them. I'll often remark on them on a book both Jan and I read and she'll say -- oh, you're right, but it didn't bother her because she didn't catch it. My conclusion is that while I try like the dickens not to have a POV switch in the same scene, if others want to, that's fine with me, but they won't earn 5 stars from me.<br /><br />The play fair thing (assuming it's a mystery, not suspense or thriller where the reader knows more than the protag) drives me up a wall when not followed. If the protag knew something and didn't share, I'm done with the author. If a solution is plopped in the lap of the protag through no effort on her own -- at the very end--I am disappointed and it sours the whole book.<br /><br />~ Jim Jim Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15090252530437277145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-43904123336532817992014-08-01T10:11:00.839-04:002014-08-01T10:11:00.839-04:00I'm another of the changing view points in a s...I'm another of the changing view points in a scene people. Drives me up a wall.<br /><br />And I'm of the opinion that you can break rules - if you know what you are doing. Is there a reason for it? Then do it and make sure you do it well. But the "rules" are there to make you think about why you feel you must do it.<br /><br />And Hank? I've said for years that if I were ever involved in a mystery and I knew a critical piece of information, I would call everyone I knew and blurt it out over the phone before even saying "hi." Otherwise, I'd just be asking to be the next victim.Mark Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567392254011373198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-81665216451355995292014-08-01T10:09:01.461-04:002014-08-01T10:09:01.461-04:00I try to all of my major players introduced by pag...I try to all of my major players introduced by page 75. Not sure where I heard that, but it does seem to work well with pacing, but allows me to avoid bringing too many characters on stage in chapter one. <br /><br />What Ramona said is something that always helps me improve a book, and that's to pay attention to the victim. Sometimes it's something I do after the first draft is written, but when I make sure the victim is a solid character, the book is better.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07754229648422848542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-17974268184408696662014-08-01T09:33:23.506-04:002014-08-01T09:33:23.506-04:00I'm big on playing fair and POV. And tense! I ...I'm big on playing fair and POV. And tense! I read a book that kept switching between past and present and every time it was like a punch to the guy. Ugh.<br /><br />As for the rest of the "rules," well, you Reds are my heroines. Except for short works (where you have to have the murder earlier because, well, fewer words), the murder tends to happen later than the "rules" say. But, and this kind of goes with what Ramona said, I really don't like killing someone before the reader has gotten to know (and either like or dislike) him/her. So I guess my other "rule" is don't shortchange your victim - he/she isn't just there to give the sleuth something to do.<br /><br />Oh, and I agree about not making characters do something just for plot, or plot devices that aren't true to character. The two have to get along.Liz Millironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04919409969263609919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-12753374331333053642014-08-01T09:33:21.326-04:002014-08-01T09:33:21.326-04:00Yeah, about those multiple characters in the openi...Yeah, about those multiple characters in the opening chapter.... The last book I read by a well-known mystery writer started with the main series protag attending a conference. The reader got treated to the names and backstories of every single person the protag met at the conference. And that was only Chapter one. We met even more in Chapter 2, and probably more in Chapter 3, but I'd stopped reading by then.Susan Dhttp://www.susannastone.blogspot.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-63738596446623482232014-08-01T09:00:42.330-04:002014-08-01T09:00:42.330-04:00Kristopher, you put your finger on it -- because g...Kristopher, you put your finger on it -- because good writing is invisible ... whether the writer is following the rules or breaking them, it's working when the reader is engrossed in the story and doesn't noticeHallie Ephronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04759439029582054503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-30490648798242465582014-08-01T08:25:45.960-04:002014-08-01T08:25:45.960-04:00I am very big on the whole "play fair" t...I am very big on the whole "play fair" thing. If I author defies that in a book, it's unlikely that I will pick up another book by that author. I can - but won't - name a small handful of authors who I don't read anymore for this reason.<br /><br />POV is interesting to me. When I am reading, I know a book is doing it right when I don't even notice the POV. It just feels natural (for the reading and I suspect for the writing). Because of that, when it goes wrong, I immediately notice. <br /><br />But as pointed out here, there are some cases I can think of where shifting POVs (within scenes) are done successfully and in those cases, again, it sort of goes unnoticed by me until I go back to write a review or something. So, it works! But it is not easy to pull off.Kristopherhttp://www.bolobooks.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-89382815947576332522014-08-01T07:55:47.227-04:002014-08-01T07:55:47.227-04:00I'm with you, Ellen, most of the time on that ...I'm with you, Ellen, most of the time on that POV thing.<br /><br />Joan, Ramona - so funny what you both say about twins. But as a plot device it's so "Agatha Christie."<br /><br />Marianne, stereotyped characters make me lose trust in the writer.Hallie Ephronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04759439029582054503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-74930111741402494082014-08-01T07:48:03.020-04:002014-08-01T07:48:03.020-04:00O, man, POV. I'll drop a book with sliding POV...O, man, POV. I'll drop a book with sliding POV faster than a hot potato. <br /><br />Worst amateur story I ever read opened with a POV description of the main characters-- and speculation about them-- by a rider already on the bus as they got on, a passing character who never occurred again. Hey, if you are going to open inside someone's head, he/she had better turn out to be important! Ellen Kozaknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-51113857580445974072014-08-01T07:42:34.905-04:002014-08-01T07:42:34.905-04:00You are all so brilliant! I love that you share y...You are all so brilliant! I love that you share your writing rules with us.<br /><br />I'm not sure if it's a broken rule but I tend to put a book down if the characters are unnecessarily dumb. The helpless female, the truly dumb jock, stereotypes like that. One of the things I love about your books is the strong female characters. Thank you for that.Marianne in Mainenoreply@blogger.com