tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post4542923765207734139..comments2024-03-29T10:25:17.813-04:00Comments on Jungle Red Writers: To Plot or not to Plot by Allison BrennanJungle Red Writershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16646429819267618412noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-68346231613402126192017-06-30T18:25:36.437-04:002017-06-30T18:25:36.437-04:00Good luck! :) Good luck! :) Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-35080266445014570412017-06-30T11:06:19.310-04:002017-06-30T11:06:19.310-04:00Lucy,
I, too, find I'm less tied to an outline...Lucy,<br />I, too, find I'm less tied to an outline with every new book I write. I was afraid the book I'm finishing today would be short, but I've added subplots that grow out of my characters' personalities.Marilyn Levinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10424778692932139865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-24751898583146630162017-06-30T10:05:56.923-04:002017-06-30T10:05:56.923-04:00I've never used the term organic writer but no...I've never used the term organic writer but now I know what I am! Thanks, Allison. Getting stuck has never really been a problem for me. I have found myself frustrated by what's coming down on the page. Once in a while, I feel like I've written myself into a corner. I'll pace, groan, maybe have a cup of coffee, then tackle it again. Thanks for a great post!Brenda Whitesidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04162555468154752820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-22745809640990658322017-06-30T10:01:25.667-04:002017-06-30T10:01:25.667-04:00This happened to me for the first time in my just ...This happened to me for the first time in my just completed ms. I normally know my killer. I was fooled for a while this last time and had to add a few scenes and change others. Worked out for the best.Brenda Whitesidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04162555468154752820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-54344034447597586932017-06-30T03:28:35.894-04:002017-06-30T03:28:35.894-04:00Brilliant retort, Allison!Brilliant retort, Allison!Maureen Harringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499876353651763590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-10605701670153506192017-06-30T03:25:28.562-04:002017-06-30T03:25:28.562-04:00Hi Lucy. Thank you. It wasn't until several mo...Hi Lucy. Thank you. It wasn't until several moths ago that I realized that's what I'd been doing for a very long time. Now I can put it to better use by directing my attention to a scene in a certain place. As I write I see the action unfolding. In a way I enter the story as an observer recording the action and what the characters are saying. A specific example would be recalling a place, maybe a restaurant from my past. I would just look at it in my mind and see the different things there that catch my attention. People might be sitting in booths. Perhaps I would notice a person who is looking out the window. The story starts to unfold as I write. It's rather like having a dream and writing it down. Later I need to look objectively once in awhile at my scenes and wonder where they are going. One scene I have been developing for much too long is finally moving at a good pace as many different scenes are now fitting together like a giant puzzle. It takes trust.Maureen Harringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499876353651763590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-33373024519838723022017-06-30T01:23:27.530-04:002017-06-30T01:23:27.530-04:00Teaching writing to young people is hard because t...Teaching writing to young people is hard because they really don't know much of anything -- I'm not saying that negatively! You need to teach all the possibles, because what works for one type of student doesn't work for another. They have to try different things because they really don't know what will work. It's why I would make a lousy teacher ...Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-41060096245476967432017-06-30T01:21:27.489-04:002017-06-30T01:21:27.489-04:00Glad to be here!Glad to be here!Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-35395029085771038242017-06-30T01:20:39.243-04:002017-06-30T01:20:39.243-04:00I think it's important that everyone find thei...I think it's important that everyone find their own process and recognize that even if it makes no sense to anyone else, it makes sense to them -- and it works for them. :) Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-71385020101017931312017-06-30T01:18:17.429-04:002017-06-30T01:18:17.429-04:00You're right Jay -- maybe disrespectful isn...You're right Jay -- maybe disrespectful isn't the right word. But there are things we don't like to do that we still need to do for college, our jobs, etc. So learning a different skill has benefits, even if we don't apply them all the time. ... Truth be told, I was always sort of a teacher's pet :)Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-6677534042449811092017-06-29T19:28:52.874-04:002017-06-29T19:28:52.874-04:00Allison, thank you. I tried writing during the No...Allison, thank you. I tried writing during the Novel Writing Month and I barely managed double spaced 5 pages! I like the idea of character development and I will try that again!Bibliophilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07764234701385787238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-84279013063696212122017-06-29T16:01:42.380-04:002017-06-29T16:01:42.380-04:00Allison, the daughter wasn't being disrespectf...Allison, the daughter wasn't being disrespectful to the teacher, she approached her with a rational argument and all.<br /><br />I know that when I had to do a term paper in my junior year of high school, I had to present the topic to the teacher in such a way to convince her to let me write it.<br /><br />So I chose to look at the social significance of the band W.A.S.P.'s (a shock rock band from the 80's) lyrics. So I wrote up the proposal and it got accepted. To this day it amazes me that it got accepted as an outline for a term paper because I totally BS'd (or pantsed) my way through it. Even more amazing that it also resulted in an A minus grade.Jay Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11409350742317719903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-58100934369525001802017-06-29T15:55:56.239-04:002017-06-29T15:55:56.239-04:00Rhys, does outlining always mean you are hidebound...Rhys, does outlining always mean you are hidebound to follow it? Can an outline be just a guiding tool and if you find something that does or doesn't work you can add it in?Jay Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11409350742317719903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-47833654268267511602017-06-29T15:03:07.981-04:002017-06-29T15:03:07.981-04:00I'd say if it works for you, then you're a...I'd say if it works for you, then you're absolutely doing it right. I'm interested in how authors write because I've taught writing to elementary and high school students, but in the end, what is important is a good story told. I'm going to try to start using the phrase "writing organically" as opposed to "pantsing." And, I like that you brought up the word choice part of writing, Allison, as that can be a real stumbling block for me sometimes in writing reviews. I need to let that go more and come back to it in editing. <br /><br />Now, my embarrassing confession is that I need to start reading your books, Allison, and I do indeed plan to do that. Thanks for such a down-to-earth glimpse at your writing. You've hooked me!Kathy Reelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17004247271452356577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-39183299719959933342017-06-29T13:24:00.059-04:002017-06-29T13:24:00.059-04:00Fan girl here ... love you Hank! :)
I think the ...Fan girl here ... love you Hank! :) <br /><br />I think the key that helps me is that I've written a book. I can write another. And another. I take them one book at a time. I used to think I would never have another idea after the first idea ... then one came. Then another. Now I fear I won't have enough time to write all the ideas I have!Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-13483073202447208162017-06-29T13:22:29.245-04:002017-06-29T13:22:29.245-04:00I never use cleaning or laundry as a procrastinati...I never use cleaning or laundry as a procrastination device ... I'll usually play video games or watch television or play cards with the kids!Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-43371197114431938882017-06-29T13:10:30.714-04:002017-06-29T13:10:30.714-04:00sorry about the fragmented and word drops.. it is ...sorry about the fragmented and word drops.. it is too hot to revise this morning. Coralee Hickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691335135691119400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-68907699891060126492017-06-29T13:08:26.248-04:002017-06-29T13:08:26.248-04:00As a reader I suspect the organic vs plotter based...As a reader I suspect the organic vs plotter based on the books structure. If the author introduces a bad guy in the first third of the novel that did actually do the deed, I suspect a plotter. Caveat: the author pulls the least likely suspect i.e. Christie;s style. <br /><br />I love hearing about bad guys telling the author "I didn't do it" Yes you did! No I didn't.. then who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?? and so on.. . <br /><br />Thank you Alison for sharing more about the nuts and bolts of mystery/thriller writing, and welcome to JRW. Coralee Hickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691335135691119400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-10741593065937577752017-06-29T12:57:21.389-04:002017-06-29T12:57:21.389-04:00Great post! I've done both - written with a fu...Great post! I've done both - written with a full plot and/or organically. I fall somewhere in the middle now as I usually work off a ten page synopsis (I think of it as a map so I don't get lost) so I know what happens when but not usually how or why as that comes as the story unfolds through the characters. Huh, now I'm not sure my process even makes sense. :)Jenn McKinlayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214926031147370862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-1286421842775160882017-06-29T12:02:19.445-04:002017-06-29T12:02:19.445-04:00Allison, what you say makes perfect sense to me! ...Allison, what you say makes perfect sense to me! I have written a little but that was pretty much how I did it. Got an idea and went from there. As a reader I certainly cannot tell how the author did what she/he did to get the story on the page. I can only tell if it was my kind of story or not.Judihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06777683026890358953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-75787096918198229772017-06-29T11:58:22.361-04:002017-06-29T11:58:22.361-04:00I'm working on my first novel and my process i...I'm working on my first novel and my process is almost exactly like yours! I started writing writing writing, thinking I finally found the idea that was going to motivate me to finish my book and then BAM! hit a wall.<br /><br />So I did an extremely bare bones outline, which sort of helped as it gave me a general direction to work in, but I kept straying away from it.<br /><br />The one thing that really helps me is my morning scribbles/brainstorming/free-writing/whatever you want to call it. I usually know what has to happen in a scene, but not how it happens, so I'll open up a Word document and basically have a free-form conversation with myself. It's like thinking through my fingers, and has lead to some MAJOR breakthroughs.Mia P. Manansalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10769140102638604922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-51177732463653146402017-06-29T11:50:12.708-04:002017-06-29T11:50:12.708-04:00Allison, your post is just what I needed to read t...Allison, your post is just what I needed to read today! I've always done some outlining for my Fina Ludlow series, but I'm writing a standalone at the moment and taking a very different approach. I tried outlining, but it wasn't working, and I was having so many false starts. I have a group of characters in mind, so I recently decided to just start writing. It's a completely new process for me, but I keep reminding myself that I'm writing a completely different kind of book than what I've written in the past. It's scary, though! It's also been interesting to get feedback from those around me who say, "but you always outline!" Unlike you, I can't say that it's worked before, but that's a little piece of me that feels like this is the way to go. Thanks for offering such great advice and encouragement!Ingrid Thofthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063912686011336076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-73256177940096482332017-06-29T11:38:35.931-04:002017-06-29T11:38:35.931-04:001) Story comes from character. A friend of mine to...1) Story comes from character. A friend of mine told me once "Character + Conflict = Story (or plot.)" I don't need to know the story to create a story. I just need to develop my characters and challenge them. When I say I don't "plot" it means that if I start with a murder, I don't have the details. I see what my characters see. They go into the room and start investigating (my Lucy series is crime fiction, ala police procedural. My Max series is cold case mysteries -- she's a reporter.) Sometimes I get deep into my killer's head (if they are particularly interesting.) But the plot develops as I write, as my characters act. As Stephen King says, "Plot happens."<br /><br />2) My books are over 100K words (most thrillers will fall in the 80-120K word range.) So they're a bit longer than, say, cozy mysteries. So my first draft is usually between 350-400 double-spaced pages (first drafts are shorter at about 90K words.) Then I go back and flesh out scenes, add description, trim repetitiveness, etc. In the end, my books are between 450-500 double spaced manuscript pages and almost always about 110K words.<br /><br />A book that might help you is SELF EDITING FOR FICTION WRITERS by Browne (I think!) ... it'll teach you SO much and is the only craft book I read before I was actually published. I now employ many of their suggestions when I do my first round of edits -- I've read that book multiple times. Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-10992369889977093922017-06-29T11:32:28.025-04:002017-06-29T11:32:28.025-04:00Exactly! Nora Roberts says, "I can't fix ...Exactly! Nora Roberts says, "I can't fix a blank page." I take that to heart.Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1001156153899984046.post-5955370838560713092017-06-29T11:31:59.552-04:002017-06-29T11:31:59.552-04:00Yes, you did answer your own question! I think of ...Yes, you did answer your own question! I think of it this way -- like Christopher Vogler said in THE WRITER'S JOURNEY, each character is the hero of his own journey. The protagonist and the antagonist. I also recognize that secondary characters also have journeys, and where all these journey's intersect is the story. Sometimes as I'm writing, I want to flesh out one of the secondary characters, so I get inside their head and a strong subplot emerges. It happened with BREAKING POINT when I have a counselor who rescues underage sex workers. She was supposed to be a secondary character, and she is, but I found that she was also the best character to give the reader information that the reader needs to know, but which most characters would already know (if that makes sense.) So to make her fully developed, I gave her a strong backstory. I don't usually write religious characters, but she came to me fully formed and she considers her work a "calling." So she's devout, and making sure I can convey that without being "preachy" has been a great exercise for me. I have a friend who is a Christian missionary and he and his wife gave up everything they owned to travel to impoverished and sometimes countries and help them farm, build homes, teach children, give basic medical help, etc. So I used their "voices" for lack of a better word to help me form my character. But de facto, this adds meat to the story.Allison Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598446973999304028noreply@blogger.com