HALLIE EPHRON: One of my oldest and dearest friends is familiar here on Jungle Red: Patricia Kennedy. She and I have been friends since we met, standing on line waiting for our orders at a food coop back in... mustabeen 1976 because I was carrying my daughter in a Snugli. Pat would soon be starting her very successful public relations firm and I was starting a stint teaching at a local college.
Out of the gate, she and I loved to talk about writing and writers, words and grammar, and today she's always reading several books and actually keeping up with The New Yorker. She thinks a lot about words, grammar, and spelling, and getting it right. She might, in another life, have been an editor or a fact checker. In fact, she's been a star publicist whose job description included spinning facts, though never making them ip.
PAT KENNEDY: I started reading The New Yorker obsessively (or should that be “fanatically” or perhaps “compulsively) in 1966 when my then mother-in-law handed me my first issue which was devoted to (or “which contained the first installment of….”) Truman Capote’s genre-bending In Cold Blood. I have read every issue since. (“Can you verify this fact -- every issue? Really?”)
I am also the person who silently (mostly) corrects spoken grammar in my head unless it is egregiously stupid. I cannot bear the pervasive use of “Me and Kathleen are going to the store.”
My grandchildren know how I abhor that. “Dear, you wouldn’t say, “Me is going to the store. So why do you say, ‘Me and Kathleen are going?”
The September 1 and 8 New Yorker issue has an entertaining and enlightening article about the magazine’s celebrated grammar and fact-checking (hyphenated?) titled: “Vaunted: How this magazine gets its facts straight.”
Zach Helfand mentions in his lead paragraph that the article’s draft that he turned in to the magazine’s checking department had seventy-nine errors. And that a New Yorker published in the eighties contained a thousand of them. (Helfand gleefully mentions that this fact wouldn’t survive a fact-checking today.)
I can’t tell you how relieved I was to read this. New Yorker writers make mistakes! Lots of them!
I so hate it when a reader points out a stupid mistake I made in a published piece – factual or grammar related. I can feel myself blushing as I have written some real “boners”. (Oh, gosh, here I go again. “Is a boner a vulgar term or a stupid mistake? Better come up with a better word.”)
Here's a doozy of a sentence I wrote once when I meant to use the word “cushions” but wrote “the boat was fitted out with cushy, white Christians.” I’d like to blame auto-correct for that, but I proofed the copy several times and never caught it – until the emails started coming in.
Even more embarrassing is when I finally noticed that the footer on my website page had a typo in my telephone number. Area code 671 instead of the correct 617. So careless. I hate it when I glaze over “facts” and get things wrong.
So, dear Reddies, let’s hear from you about your humiliating experiences with poor word choices, grammatical slips (Oxford comma or no?) and error prone facts. Surely, you have some great (and factual) stories to tell.
But before I go, read The New Yorker article. It is so fun to read – and reliably true. The fact checkers made sure of that.
HALLIE EPHRON: Confession, as they say, is good for the sole... er soul. Looking forward to reading your mea culpas.
Patricia Kennedy is a retired marketing communications professional who runs a bed and breakfast at Long Pond, Massachusetts and Key West, Florida for grandchildren, other relatives and friends. Rooms are fully booked.
This is fascinating, Patricia . . . and now I'm wondering if the growing use of AI adds to those "goofs" with word choices and incorrect facts?
ReplyDeletePK: I haven’t figured out AI yet so can’t comment. I also haven’t figured out how to use my name in the “Comment As” reply box. So here I am, PK aka Patricia Kennedy.
DeleteI just received the umpteenth, obviously AI – written “invitation“ to speak to a nonexistent, I believe, book group and it gave me one date in the first paragraph and a totally different date in the closing paragraph. So obviously no fact checkers in that AI.
DeleteOh, I love this. It makes me feel so much better. Back in the day, I worked as a paralegal and drafted a zillion pleadings that passed through multiple reviews before we filed them with the court. Imagine my surprise when I handed a document to my boss during the hearing and discovered the phrase 'the surviving souse'. Way too late to correct the typo to spouse. Gulp.
ReplyDeleteKait, that was my first laugh of the day. I hope I didn't wake my spouse.
DeletePK here….that would be so funny to me except that I once had a spouse who was a souse.
DeleteHa ha ha!! Good book title: The Surviving Souse
DeleteWelcome back, Patricia. There are too many spoken errors to even count, but the one that grates on me the worst is the hypercorrective "I" where it doesn't belong. "She gave it to Marie and I." No! As you say to your grands, "You would never say, 'She gave it to I.'" People put it in writing, too. Grr.
ReplyDeleteI'll never catch up on my New Yorkers, but I did read the fact-checker article and loved it. Back when I was a software technical writer, I barely caught the following error before the book went to print: Step 5. Lick the Save button. Gah (and giggle)!
Good one, Edith!
DeleteOh, the Oxford comma definitely. I don't understand why anyone would doubt its usefulness or vital purpose.
DeleteNever knew that, I thought it was “….and me”?
DeleteDiana, yes, it IS "and me." Edith is talking about people who over-correct, who anxiously believe "me" is verboten and so put "I" everywhere, including where it doesn't belong, in this case after a preposition. (Selden)
DeleteIn Canada English class circa 1960's, we were taught Not to use the Oxford comma. We were also taught 'someone and me/I' - to check substitute we/us in your head to see if your choice works. Correct as needed. One other one - 'I' always comes last - just like walking through a door. Open the door and let the guest in first. Similarly in a sentence, welcome the others and you should follow. That means my friends and me, not Me and my friends.
DeletePK: That’s a useful way to teach, Margo. Can I quote you when one of my grandchildren misspeak?
DeletePK: Oops. That should be “when one of my grandchildren misspeaks.”
DeleteSelden, thank you.
DeleteUse as needed. I always loved that English teachers had all those little tricks to 'speaking right some good!' She taught in vain trying to get local kids to use the letter 'H', or to not use it. 'Ouse' was a house, and h'apple was really not how to address an apple.
DeleteEdith, that construction of "She gave it to Marie and I" is pet peeve of mine as well, and the very first thing that popped into my mind when reading this excellent blog entry.
DeleteAlso, I am in the camp of ALWAYS use the Oxford comma.
DeleteI’m with Edith on the hyper corrective “I”—not only is it common in speech, but also wrongly shows up in written materials. Please! Can we abolish?!
ReplyDeleteGreat topic today. Reminded me of the time I caught a typo in an ARC of a novel and let the author know. Sometimes there was time to correct the typo before publication.
ReplyDeleteLove your piece Pat! thanks for visiting. I can't think of a single good blooper but I know I've made many. Yesterday I did get an email from a lady who was recording A SCONE OF CONTENTION for the blind. She wanted to be sure that I meant 1 T. of pepper meant a tablespoon not a teaspoon. She could imagine the poor blind people spitting that spicy soup out!
ReplyDeleteHi Roberta. One of the honors in my life is having a recipe in a Lucy Burdette book. I have never, however, seen a recipe which just uses the capital T for tablespoon (or is that teaspoon)?
DeleteMy mother and grandmothers always used capital T for tablespoon. I have recipes in many of my cozy mysteries, and got edited right away to spell out all abbreviations: cup, tablespoon, teaspoon, ounce, and so on. Thank you, Kensington!. Now I write those measurements like that without thinking about it.
DeleteEdith, I think spelling out measurements in recipes is the best way to do it. However, when I am coping a recipe because I am lazy I use a capital T for tablespoon and a small t for teaspoon.
DeleteI don't know how that one slipped by. But it was a recipe from a pal, so I probably didn't edit carefully :)
DeleteI was a teacher at a middle school. I was so disturbed by the misuse of "I" and "me" that I did a skit about it during a lunch council (all school meeting at the end of lunch). I had a child holding an "I" sign and a child holding a "me" sign and had them stand up or sit down depending on their use and where they stood in a sentence, pulling the children back and forth. All the students laughed and enjoyed it but I'm not sure they learned anything. Meanwhile I reminded our first child, who is dyslexic, and my husband, who is also dyslexic, about it forever. They're both now letter-perfect. (My husband will even correct TV shows to me sotto voce. "That should be *me*, right?") However our second child, who is NOT dyslexic, was ten years younger and in middle school when child #1 was having very serious mental health problems that demanded all my energy. I never drilled child #2 and I frequently cringe today when I read her emails. If I'm given her written materials I will correct them but I've decided 27 is too old to correct her speech, just as I didn't correct the speech of teaching colleagues, or of children who were brave enough to speak up in history class.
ReplyDeleteThe worst spelling/typing mistake I ever made was spelling "camaraderie" "comraderie" in a school fundraising flyer when I was 28. I was the school's writer and proofreader and thus often was not proofread myself. The headmaster had the entire mailing junked at the painful cost of $1500. I was mortified to tears and told him that when I was dead and cut open, they would find "camaraderie" inscribed on my heart. (Selden)
PK: Oh, dear camrade. Please forgive yourself. If writers for the New Yorker can make errors, then we merely mortals are allowed a few ourselves.
DeletePK: Oh dear. I think I meant comrade. Or is it just Comrad?
DeleteIt’s a wise person who knows when to let things go. My mother used to Correct us at every intersection. If I asked whether I could do something she would answer “you can but you may not.”
DeleteLove your lunch skit story Selden. You must have been a fun teacher (and smart!!).
DeleteHallie - your mom may be the reason you are so well versed! LOL!
Love this post, Pat. It's a great topic. My mother drummed grammar into our heads, including when to use "I" and "me". She would be appalled now, because we hear it done wrong all the time. I once heard a public radio host say "me and so-and-so". Mom criticized TV commercials. It's not "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should" but "as", I'm really trying to lighten up a little. Language grows and changes with each generation and what used to be forbidden is now common. I tell the little voice in my head to take a break.
ReplyDeleteI know I've made some boners (ha) over the years, but the ones that come to mind at the moment are the mistakes I've made in Spanish. There's nothing like learning a foreign language to keep you humble.
I don’t make mistakes in other languages because I am hopeless when trying to learn even the basics of even Spanish or French. My personal trainer is from India. She told me that she speaks 4 languages fluently and understands many others. India has millions of residents and apparently almost as many languages.
DeletePAT: Are you the same Pat Kennedy who wrote a book about growing up with Deaf parents? I asked because September is Deaf Awareness Month.
ReplyDeletePK: No, I have not written that book—yet. I did, however, publish a recent piece for Jungle Red Writers about growing up with deaf parents. It is incredibly hard for me to write about that life not because it was a difficult childhood (it wasn’t) but more about getting the facts straight, writing honestly, not offending my siblings because they have different perspectives. I am working on it, tho, and hope to have something for the fact checkers to review before I pass from this world.
DeleteI didn’t realize that September is Deaf Awaareness month. What connection do you have with the deaf world?
DeleteGreat question. It's a given that I am connected to the deaf world since I have been deaf for most of my life. I see many social media posts about Deaf Awareness Month in September. And April is Deaf History Month.
DeletePK: I get what you mean about writing. I am currently writing a mystery set in the UK between the two World Wars and my main character is deaf. It is challenging because I want my character to be authentic. The memoir by Rachel Kolb helped me put things in perspective. And I've been learning new things like "deaf gain". I remember your piece about your deaf parents. I look forward to reading the book.
I look forward to reading your mystery. OOOOHHH, a deaf protagonist. That’s such a great idea. But only someone who is actually deaf (or lived with a deaf person) could write it. It would have to be so nuanced.
DeleteHow kind of you to say. Thank you.
DeleteI will admit to correcting grammar in my head automatically. I pretend it is to keep my aging mind limber. My biggest problem is not always with grammar, but with mispronouncing words I have read, but never looked up the correct pronunciation. I can't count the number of times I have used a word in conversation, gotten a blank look and then spelled it and learned how it was pronounced. Sadly, I usually don't remember the correct pronunciation going forward because in my brain it sounds completely different.-- Victoria
ReplyDeleteI do that a lot, Victoria. It's the plight of avid readers. I was well into middle age when I learned that "awry" wasn't pronounced AW-ree, but a-WRY!
DeletePK: That’s funny, Edith! One of the reasons I like reading on Kindle is because I can easily look up words — meaning, pronunciation, origin. — even when I think I already know the “facts.”
DeleteToday's topic brought immediately to my mind the wonderful book "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" about proper grammar and punctuation. Lynn Truss is the author if anyone is interested. Annette
ReplyDeleteI love that book and have given it to my oft-mentioned grandchildren. I think only one of the group has actually read it. Sigh…..
DeleteI often hear the pronoun HER used in place of SHE. Her should be used as possessive for example, it is HER book. SHE should be used in place of someone's name like, SHE went to the store. But as Chomsky said (if I remember correctly) language evolves over time.
ReplyDeleteThe word I have difficulty with is indict. I want to pronounce that obvious C.
PBS has a radio show called A Way With Words. The two hosts take calls from people who have all sorts of questions about language. It's fun to listen to.
Me from above ^^ I read that ending a sentence with a proposition is now acceptable.
DeleteReminds me of the joke ... (it's usually told by someone from a rival school).
A young man from Princeton is walking on a rival's college campus and is looking for the library. He asks a rival student, "Where is the library at?" The student says, "My dear man we here at our esteemed place of higher education, don't use prepositions at the end of our sentences." So the Princeton students asks, "Where is the library at a$hole."
Perfect!
DeletePK: very funny
DeleteI can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but I'm appreciating all the Oxford comma memes and comma memes in general that pop up in my facebook feed these days. And of course, I can't remember a single one.
ReplyDeleteI’m still laughing at Edith’s “lick the save button” - imagining a new product with different flavors of save buttons … make mine raspberry
ReplyDeleteRight? I'll take chocolate...
DeleteAbout the Oxford comma, here is an example of when it might be best to use it.
ReplyDeleteSpeech that doesn't use the Oxford comma: " I am here today to thank my role models who are my parents, the Pope and Mother Teresa." It could be mistaken for the Pope & Mother Teresa being his parents.
So using the Oxford comma would be clearer. "I am here today to thank my role models who are my parents, the Pope, and Mother Teresa.
Which brings us to another question when do we use WHOM and WHO?
I never really got the who/whom thing until I was in my 30s, at that time working in the School of Journalism. One of the professors somehow got me onto it. So embarrassing. When I was in my mid-60s I started studying Latin, so now use whom all the time. I wonder how I managed to graduate high school without having a firm foundation of who/whom. It's embarrassing. By the way, my husband and I always correct the grammar of TV characters.
Delete
ReplyDeleteI read this early this morning, and laughed and laughed and laughed! I just reread it and I laughed even harder! Thank you for the laughs!
Autoincorrect nearly always changes “while” to “e-bike”.It once changed “I believed the person” to “I beheaded the person”. Fortunately, I caught that at the last minute before sending the text!
DebRo
Today’s comments are all so fun. Obviously, great readers are also “concerned” grammarians and fact checkers.
ReplyDeleteWelcome back, Patricia. I don't have time to list all my faux-pas. I type fast at work and sometimes I hit "send" on an email just a tad too quickly. I'm also quite famous for saying things that just invite laughs - the unintended double-entendre.
ReplyDeleteI’ve typed bowels when I meant bowls…
ReplyDelete