Monday, September 26, 2022

The Trouble with Characters

Mykhailo Dorokhov

LUCY BURDETTE
: In addition to crime fiction, I enjoy smart women’s fiction. I bought a book recently from an author I like and started it eagerly. A chapter or two in, I was not enjoying the protagonist. She seemed pathetic in her life, with a recently deceased estranged mother, a dreadful boyfriend who had dumped her long after she should have cut him loose, and a work addiction. I persevered and the book got better. I realized that the way the character started out was an important beginning and launched an arc that allowed her to grow progressively open to love, and understanding of herself and others. But there must be a balance, because if a character is too unlikeable, who wants to read more?


I also realized that my own character Hayley Snow started out on the pathetic side. I’ve heard from a few reviewers and readers that they did not particularly like her at first, because she seemed self-absorbed and uncaring about dear friends. Over the course of 13 books, she’s improved, as my mother-in-law used to say about difficult grandchildren! And like the women’s fiction heroine, I think she needed to start low in order to have a place to grow. So that’s my question for the day, have you run into this in the books you’re writing, and definitely the books you’re reading? Is it a necessary part of a character's growth to start low? Are there books you’ve set aside completely because of this?

HALLIE EPHRON: One of the things I learned early on was to give my character room to grow. Either for things to get worse or better. If you start in the depths of despair you cut off your options. Constant pain makes a reader numb. And yes, I’ve put aside a book because I didn’t like the main character or found them annoying (too many tics, too snarky, not even a teeny bit nice…) But I love a character who’s snarky in interesting, revealing ways. It’s tricky.

RHYS BOWEN:  I have to like the character from the beginning. He or she doesn’t have to be perfect but I need to be rooting for them. I can’t tolerate whiny, self-absorbed characters!  But I do appreciate growth throughout a series. I think Molly Murphy has learned to control impulse behavior a little and Lady Georgie has definitely grown up a lot as the series has progressed.

HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN: I have to be interested in the main character from the beginning. What are they wanting, what are they doing to get it, what are the stakes? And it’s a different juggle in a series versus a standalone, because in a series–well, maybe you have a little more time. But re-thinking, no.  No matter what, you have to grab the reader.

So– I don’t mind snarky, if they have a goal. (Whiny victims are not my favorite–unless they see their problem, and work to change it.). A person with a plan, that’s what I love. No matter what it is. I think there has to be hope. And determination. And maybe a realization of foibles. Or an intrigue with the plan. Gah. Yeah.  I just have to be interested in them. 

JULIA SPENCER-FLEMING: I agree with Hank - I’ll keep reading with “interesting.” I remember diving into Laura Lippman’s AND WHEN SHE WAS GOOD and being struck how her protagonist - a suburban madam with a LOT of sharp edges - became compelling through a combination of making it interesting (who doesn’t want to know how a high-end call girl operation works?) and by carefully revealing the character’s rough back story, which transformed her often unlikeable shell into armor against a world that had been cruel to her.

Another thing that will keep me reading when the character is a sad sack? Humor. The great example of this is Bridget Jones, who is completely down on herself and kind of hopeless - but who leaves you laughing on every page. I’ll stick around to see if you can do anything with your miserable life if you tickle my funny bone.

JENN McKINLAY: It’s all so subjective. I’ve had friends recommend books, assuring me that I would love the characters so much. I start to read and discover I loathe the characters and then I have to re-evaluate my friendship with that person. Like Julia, humor will win me over with a difficult character but it’s not necessary. I recently read Lessons in Chemistry (my fave book of 2022 thus far) and the main character was interesting and engaging but not particularly funny or charming. I have discovered that I am not a fan of the angry character. The jilted woman/man who spends the length of the story in a fury over how she/he was mistreated. Hard pass. 

DEBORAH CROMBIE: Characters don't necessarily have to be "nice." But I do have to like something about them, or to find their situation interesting enough that I want to like them. Humor will pull me in, and I do like to see an opportunity for growth. But not too whiny, or I won't have the patience to stick with them.  As Jenn says, it's all so subjective. I loved Eleanor Oliphant, for instance, who was certainly not likable, but there was something relatable that pulled me in.

How about you reading Reds, what's your take on lovable vs non-starter characters?


73 comments:

  1. Even if I despise the characters and/or the storyline, I do have a tendency to keep reading the book. But I do prefer books where the character does something other than wallow in pools of self-pity. I really want to like the characters, so it’s difficult reading when I’m always rolling my eyes at their annoying behavior . . . .

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  2. I don’t like angry or whiny characters. Of course realistic characters will be angry or feeling down sometimes but all the time? No.

    When Twilight became all the rage people insisted that I had to read the series. I could not stand Bella. She was excessively whiny, mopey and self-centered even by teenage standards.

    I rarely quit on a book but an unlikeable protagonist would cause me to.

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    1. Interesting about Twilight! Did you keep reading or stop after on book?

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    2. I loathed Twilight for the same reason, Jennifer. Bella was the THE WORST. I still don't understand the appeal.

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    3. I did eventually plow through but I still couldn't stand her.
      Thank you, Jenn. I feel vindicated now that I know I'm not the only one.

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  3. Agree with aa lot of this. We have to give characters room to grow, or, as Hallie said, room to get even worse. I have certainly put down books where I realized I didn't want to spend any more time with this person or people, but the why is a bit nebulous.

    I'm revising the first book in a new series now, and I keep looking at how I have set up the protagonist with an eye to these very questions. Will her flaws make her unlikeable? Does she have room to go up - and down? Have I hooked the reader for this book and for three to infinity more? A timely discussion today!

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    1. good questions Edith, you have so much more experience after the other series under your belt--I bet this character will appreciate that!

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  4. I have to like them, they must have some redeeming value so that we can see growth in future books.

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    1. A book is a big commitment, so I agree there has to be redeeming value!

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  5. It’s early and I should probably think about this a little longer. But my first impression is that liking or disliking a character isn’t what keeps me reading. I never liked Hannibal Lector but I’ve read every one of those books.

    What pulls me in and keeps me there is the writing, period. Nothing else. By the end of the first few pages, I must have a visual of place and a notion of character. I must want to keep the light on, keep turning the page, and when I eventually stop reading for the night, I must drift off thinking about what I’ve read.

    Smile — not a lot to ask, right!

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    1. Right Lucy Roberta! Piece of cake for all the Reds. Last minute got I started rereading Wolf Hall. And I wondered if I really wanted to begin 800+ pages X 3. By the end of the first page I was hooked. And Thomas Cromwell isn’t all that likeable either!

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    2. Ann here. Remind me to read before I post.

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    3. I was embarrassed to admit that I have not read Wolf Hall or its sequels. Wolf Hall is sitting on my bookshelf, staring at me. Ann, I promise I will read that first page!

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  6. Great subject today. Last week I set aside 2 books. I'm pretty sure I won't finish either. Gah.. Humor could not save either story.

    It's so personal. There is one author whose reviews I read on Goodeads and she panned LESSONS IN CHEMISTRY. I had just finished reading it and loving it! Loving it. I have read some of that author's books and they are good with good characters but not that special.

    I did not like Where the Crawdads Sing. I read the whole book and meh. It just felt contrived.

    Character relationships are very important. If characters have a relationship I want to see it not be told about it. When I think about book characters, Gemma and Duncan stand out, not just because we like them individually, but because we see them interact. We care about them.

    Lucy, Hayley has grown. She is confident and poised. It is wonderful to see her with Nathan so we can understand their attachment to one another. I love the latest book in your series.

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    1. I am dying to read LESSONS IN CHEMISTRY now, after having heard good things from several people. Yes, true about Gemma and Duncan! Kent Krueger had that same strength. Thanks for the kind words about Hayley!

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    2. I am apparently one of a few that did not like Lessons in Chemistry. A predictable story for a different eta, not horrible but not amazing either. Reading is such a personal experience, with our varying life experiences and different points of view. I’m not usually a critical reader, but I know what I enjoy reading. This book with some different embellishments was the same old tired story. I want something new, a different perspective or point of view. The core story has been done before and with better writing!

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    3. Thanks for the kind words, Judy. I have to admit to some anxiety over a couple of other series characters. I like them, but I don't know if readers will perceive them the same way. It's all so subjective.

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  7. This post brings to mind The Goldfinch. I hated it and yet I read the whole 962 page paperback because I was rooting for Theo to get his act together. At the end I wished I hadn’t wasted my time and I had no interest in the movie due to the darkness and despair. I hope I have learned my lesson and will abandon the next book I hate.

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    1. It's hard to give up on a book, isn't it? I did abandon one this week that felt too silly to continue...

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    3. Nothing will get me to put a book aside faster than a stupid protagonist.

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  8. I want to be Bernadette when I grow up. I adore Eleanor Oliphant, Bridget Jones, and Flavia de Luce for their humor, soul-baring flaws, and take on life.

    I learned at Killer Nashville that I have a likeable main character with an interesting job and some emotional baggage. I'll take it.

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  9. Roberta, Lessons in Chemistry is so original and fascinating. I'd love to hear what you think of it.

    I just read a book the other day I very nearly did not bother to finish. The heroine was meant to be a tres successful business woman in Manhattan, but she stupidly gets taken in by not one, but two different men on the same day, then runs all over Paris trying to prove she didn't commit a crime there's no way she could have committed, nor had the slightest motive to do so. Headsmack.

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    1. Karen, you had me in stitches! One of the books I abandoned had a totally self absorbed woman and every male character, including her father, had given up on every worthwhile relationship. She was such a loser, I couldn't return with her to her family home for her revenge on her evil step-mother. Gah!

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  10. Hmmm, the character does not have to be likeable but I do need to be interested to find out what happens for me to keep reading the book. If it's a series, there definitely has to be some growth to the main protagonist. Unresolved love triangles that go on and on try my patience and I have stopped reading the books.

    Right now, I am almost finished reading a thriller by a first-time author whose main protagonist is soooo angry throughout the whole story. It's not been an enjoyable read,

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    1. Did you consider not finishing Grace? I hate to that but I will if it feels like I'm wasting precious time!

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    2. ROBERTA: There are so many unanswered questions so I am going to keep on reading. It was a highly recommended book but my rating for it has gone down the longer I have been reading it.

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    3. Grace, we are all being so polite. I would really like to know which book you are reading but on JRW, we try not to embarrass any of the authors who drop in here from time to time.

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  11. I just put a book down after a few pages. And I so wanted to like it. This is sort of a special case of what we're discussing here this morning. The Princess and the Scoundrel--the story of what comes after The Return of the Jedi movie, where Han Solo and Princess Leia get together. I am a Star Wars fan and I wear my geekdom proudly, but this book reads like fan fiction written by a high school freshman. :-( In this and every other book I pick up, I want the writing to draw me in. That biography of Georgia O'Keeffe I read last week, for example. The artist was not always admirable, smart, or likeable, but I could not put that book down. Same with the nonfiction book by Ed Yong--I only put it down because the print was smallish and my floaters were driving me crazy trying to read it. I won't finish a book if the writer can't make me care about the characters in some way--there are too many great books out there waiting for me to discover them.

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    1. Flora, was the O'Keefe book the new novel with her as protagonist? (I know you said biography.) I've ordered Light on Bone but not yet read it.

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    2. Edith, the book was the actual biography. Let me know what you think of the novel.

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    3. I just interviewed Kathy Lasky, who wrote Light on Bone. She really captures a brusque confident conflicted savvy tormented Georgia O'Keefe I never knew about! And there is great dialogue.

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    4. Hank, I especially liked the sheriff's character.

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  12. I really tend to dislike books where the main character is too unlikable or continues to sabotage him/herself time and time again. The book that comes to mind was the Pen/Faulkner prize winner CALL ME ZEBRA by Azareen Vander Vliet Oloomi that my book group read in 2019. I really didn't like the main character or her decisions, even though I knew she had experienced great trauma as a child. We had a good discussion, but I think it left us all with a bad taste in our mouths.

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  13. I don't have to like the character right away, but I need to see something interesting or redeeming about them. Something that pulls me into their life story. I am reminded of the main character in The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo series. I could not put that book down. What I don't like and won't continue reading (or if I do, I am irritated) is when the author has mistakes when it comes to legal or policing policies in the story.
    Lucy, it's been mentioned several times about Hayley Snow being self absorbed and uncaring, but I was intrigued with her personality right away. She was very likeable and maybe I could identify with her issues about a bad relationship in love and work.

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  14. Wondering how people account for the amazing success of GONE GIRL. Neither of the main characters, Amy or Nick, is at all likable. Intriguing? For sure. Horrifyingly so.

    And for me, Hayley Snow works so well because I can relate to her. She feels real and complicated in good ways.

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    1. Hallie, for me the best comment on GONE GIRL was a friend of mine: "It was like watching a train wreck in motion." But I couldn't do it for a whole book.

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    2. That's a great description. I think the quality of the writing factors in. Gillian Flynn is amazing, and didn't she have a lot of years writing for television? For plotting, that's huge.

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    3. Two different times I tried reading GONE Girl and just couldn't do it. Then there was another book with GIRL in the title and then it became a thing. I wouldn't even pick up a book if it had that word in the title and I'm sure I've missed some good ones. Now WIFE seems to be a big title word.

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    4. So funny Judi about GIRL AND WIFE. I did read GG, but I can't say I enjoyed much

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    5. Loved Gone Girl. LOVED. ANd they were all terrible people.

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  15. I am currently listening to a women's fiction audio book that I seriously considered leaving after the first chapter. It was partly because the plot felt too predictable, but more because the main character was too spineless and whiny. I stuck with it and it wasn't until chapter 6 that the plot finally veered into unpredictable territory. Around chapter 11 I finally realized I kind of care how things turn out for the protagonist. It has 8 chapter left to fully win me over.

    Bottom line, I do think a likable protagonist is important, though strong enough writing can sometimes compensate.

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    1. something has to pull us in, even if it's not the character right away!

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  16. Like so many of you, I don't need to instantly - or even ever - "like" a character, but she (or he) does need to be interesting. Something about her needs to pull me in and make me want to know more - and root for her. I think of the Jackal in DAY OF THE JACKAL or Red Reddington in "The Blacklist." I don't think either of those characters are traditionally "good" or "likable" but I sure was invested in each of them.

    I think Hallie's point about needing room to change - both up and down - is good. I think it says a lot about a character to see how she faces being pushed to the very bottom. How will she handle it? How will she change?

    Snark is a balancing act. I don't mind occasional snark. But I have put aside series where every other sentence out of the protagonist's mouth was snarky. It was snark-overload.

    Whiny-pathetic characters (who never attempt to change) or constantly angry-bitter characters (because sometimes anger and bitterness is justified) are Right Out.

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  17. Great topic today! I have to like the character from the beginning. I am NOT a fan of the angry character. Humor is important. I remember reading an ARC by an author that no one ever heard of and it was full of misyony (men who hate women). The woman was treated badly by the man. He used a word that is reserved for female dogs. That word never made sense to my logical mind. While I could kind of understand the word "witch" as in someone who flies a broom or conducts magical spells or someone like the green witch in Wizard of Oz, I never understood the other word, which I think is an insult to dogs.

    Lucy, I have no recollection of Hayley being pathetic. All I remember was that she broke up with her boyfriend ?

    For me, the characters do not have to be perfect. They can be interesting. The characters that I love from my reading are people who are likable.

    Diana

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    1. Big NO from me on misogyny!! Yes, she did break up with her bf but it took a while...

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    2. Diana and Lucy, Hayley's first boyfriend, the guy she followed to Key West was a "dog." He even put her things out on the street and misplaced her grandmother's recipes. I think that hating him was a big part of loving Hayley. She was so misused! LOL

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    3. Judy, thank you! Yes, I remembered that. Was it the "dog" who became a murder victim and Hayley was suspected of killing her ex? It has been a while since I read the first Hayley Snow book.

      Diana

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    4. Lucy, thanks! I completely forgot about the bf that she broke up with. It seems that she has always been with Nathan and I had forgotten that she had not met him yet at the beginning of the first novel?

      Diana

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    5. Diana, it was the new girlfriend of the guy whom Hayley followed to Key West who was poisoned and her sister is part owner of the paper Hayley writes for. I should revisit book #1 to get the sequences correct, but I do remember a lot of that plot.

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  18. Lucy, the book you described sounded very familiar to me. It was by an author whose work I usually like but that one was tough going. I'm ditching books a lot sooner than I used to. I know many people loved IT GIRL (there's that word again) but there was so much repetition, I just stopped reading. I no longer cared who did what and none of the characters stood out to me as particularly likable or even interesting.

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    1. I'm not as patient as I used to be either, Judi

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    2. Judi, I am laughing. "I no longer cared who did what..." What a review! Ha, ha..

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  19. Well, likable or not, I have to care. If after a few chapters I find myself wondering if I give a darn about what happens to this character (and wondering = no, guess not) then they're history. Too many books out there, with more coming down the pike, and too few years left on my calendar.

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    1. this is exactly it Susan--so many books and only a certain amount of time to read them...

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  20. I must be able to find at least one redeeming quality in the protagonist. Recently I gave up on a book about three quarters of the way into it. The story, a standalone, was told in the first person, and the main character was extremely unlikeable. She was a liar, a manipulator, a thief, and I could go on and on. She plotted revenge against people who hadn’t really done anything wrong. As things went wrong in her life I found myself cheering. I hated her more and more. Finally, I put the book aside. Just for the heck of it, I checked out the last few pages, and she hadn’t changed. As far as I’m concerned I wasted my time reading that book.

    DebRo

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    1. oh bummer on wasted time Deb. I too will sometimes skip to the end to see if anything's changed.

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    2. Deb, what do you think an author is trying to accomplish with that type of character?
      I have read almost all of Michael Connelly's books. One stand-alone has a female theif as its protagonist. I stopped reading after just a couple of chapters. Some contributors on his fan pages think that was his best book. Each of us is different.

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    3. Judy, I wish I knew what the author was trying to accomplish. I just got angrier and angrier as I continued reading the book. I looked at a lot of the Amazon reviews, and most people didn’t like the protagonist. Some felt that the author was manipulating the readers. I don’t know if we were supposed to feel sorry for her. She had no redeeming qualities and did not grow at all over the course of the story.

      DebRo

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  21. I loved this discussion. Once I would have said I have to like the character or characters to stay with a book. But I think "caring" about them is more accurate. I abandoned one author for all time despite excellent plots because after two books I valiantly stuck wy I realized I didn't like OR care about these characters (a series) and didn't want to spend time them. Whereas Anne Tyler is one of my favorite authors. No matter how "at sea" her characters are, she works some magic and makes you care them even when you want to shake some common sense into them. I think it's her humor.

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  22. Lots to noodle on here. Nice is not necessary, but worth my time is essential. Either by some part of the character's personality or situation or action or by the intrigue of the story. When the writing is strong from the opening paragraph, I can be persuaded to spend some time within the pages of the book until I get swept up in the whole enterprise.

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  23. The character has to be interesting but not necessarily "nice." There needs to be room for change whether it is positive or negative. Too Stupid To Live characters need not apply!

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  24. It depends on the kind of book, too... I completely don't need nice. Or likable. I prefer fascinating, or interesting, or someone with an amazing idea, or a mysterious challenge or an irresistible puzzle.. ANd they need to behave like they really would behave! No one is always wise, no one always makes the "right' decisions, whatever that means. But they have to be believable, their motivations understandable. If the stakes are high, might they take more of a risk?Of course! And if we understand that, we can be brave (or even mistaken or unwise) with them! Do we "like" Sherlock Holmes? We do, because we like Watson. But Holmes is extremely unlikable. And yet we devour that, because he's smart and interesting. Do we "Like" Jane Tennison? I just read a book where everyone was awful--and it was hilariously wonderful. We know I'm in love with Morse, but likable?
    Maybe this is a genre thing?

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  25. Like Debs, there needs to be something I like about the protagonist, some redeeming quality. I seldom call out a book I didn't like, but Gone Girl's main characters were the same pathetic characters at the end as they were at the beginning. I finished because so many people seemed to love it, but The Plot was the same for me.

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  26. I didn't care for GONE GIRL for the reasons Kathy stated. A character can be "deliciously" unlikeable but make them blah or take away too much agency, and the story seems flat to me.

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  27. When my mother was dying, she was fussing about a book. I said that she didn't have to finish it. She did but often I don't. I have too many books and TV shows that I really like to bother with ones that I don't.

    Sorry that I didn't like Hayley at first and didn't get back to the series until I won a free book. Now I love it.

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  28. They don't have to be likeable, but they can't be detestable. Unless of course they are murder victims!

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  29. I'm just echoing what most of you have said, but I can't resist adding my two cents' worth. I have to care what happens to the main character, even if I don't like him/her from the beginning; the person can also make wrong decisions but not stupid ones (at least not more than once). By the end of the book, I have to care a lot about the main character--and hopefully a few other people along the way. An exciting plot is NOT enough to keep me going. The best book are ones I want to reread so I can be with the people in them.

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