HALLIE EPHRON: My mother couldn’t help herself. When I would ask her something like, “Can I go to that movie,” she’d answer, “You can, but you may not.”
Some things simply could not go uncorrected. If anyone within earshot commented, “That’s your forte,” meaning strong suit, and pronouncing it for-TAY, she’d correct them. It was pronounced FORT, she insisted. (Nowadays dictionaries mostly consider FORT correct... so there!)
Words were her business. She’d been an English major at college, spoke French and Yiddish, and co-wrote screenplays with my dad. She recited poetry at the dinner table and routinely aced the literature questions on College Bowl, which we watched together.
Her "mothering" began with reading to us and ended with correcting us. Heady stuff.
I try not to correct to other people at social or family gatherings. Although I inherited my mother’s voice, forever in my head, bossing the rest of the world around and dinging misspoken words.
When it comes to my writing (or when I’m asked to reviewed other people’s work), I do find myself engaged in a war against redundancy of which I’m sure my mother would approve.
“Stand up.” “Sit down.” “Suddenly exploded.”
Unable to help myself, I release my inner grammarian and the (virtual) blue pencil in my hand.You don’t need to say up or down or suddenly. The verbs stand, sit, and explode do the heavy lifting all by themselves.
There are a few verbs that I want to pick up my blue pencil and smite completely. One them is gifted -- as in she gifted me her lucky baseball cap. When GAVE will do. ("Gifted" works perfectly well as an adjective, as in "she was a gifted grammarian." But it is not a verb. As I'm sure my mother would have agreed.)
Though I'm not averse to the occasional inspired transformation of a noun to a verb. P. L. Travers in Mary Poppins wrote the March children trapezing across the room. Lovely inventive image.
Are there faux pas that you simple cannot allow to glide by, or are you pretty mellow when it comes to grammar and usage?
Are there faux pas that you simple cannot allow to glide by, or are you pretty mellow when it comes to grammar and usage?
The misuse of personal pronouns, especially in written conversation, makes me cringe.
ReplyDeleteSuch as... him and me went to the store??
DeleteAlthough, as a rule, I don't correct other people about anything, I cringe when someone uses "over" instead of "more than." My virtual blue pencil doesn't care that it is generally acceptable usage today, it still grates on my “correct usage” nerve . . . .
ReplyDeleteI'm with you, Joan. A newspaper editor once told me: "over the fireplace" but "more than one hundred people". I've never forgotten.
DeleteYou see that one misused a lot.
DeleteHugh's English-teacher mother did the same kind of correcting, Hallie, and I think he's still scarred. I was at my doctor's last week for the annual smashing of the boobs, and a big sign had "All radiology patient's *please check-in next door." SO much to correct: patients, odd asterisk, check in. Alas, it was behind glass and my purse was devoid of Witeout or red sharpie... But correcting is different with spoken language as opposed to written. I correct people on the radio all the time when they say "infastructure" and I agree about "gifted." A former boss used to say "ekcetera" - gah! But I did not correct her.
ReplyDeleteAgree about the redundancies. Ramona DeFelice Long taught me that (and so much more).
I'm the same, Edith - correcting news presenters. Also when words get mispronounced, like the town near me Quincy which is pronounced Quin-tsee (not Quin-zee) and local broadcasters should know.
Delete"Fort" rather than "ForTAY?" Oh, no. I've been saying that wrong all this time! (Hangs head in shame.) The word that I'd like to eliminate from the universe is "actually." 99.9% of the time, it adds nothing to the meaning of the sentence. What really sets my teeth on edge is when I hear it slip from my own lips on rare occasions.
ReplyDeleteWhile we're talking about mispronounced words, I have to throw out two that I either mispronounce or have to stop and sound them out in my head before speaking. One is thesaurus. The other is omniscient. When I give my POV workshop, I have it spelled out phonetically in my notes!
Really?!? So smart of you to do that. The only word I have trouble with is aspidistra... but then how often do you use it?
DeleteWell one grammar error in particular sets my teeth on edge every time I hear or see it: "(name) and I," as in, "He gave the box to Bob and I;" "She saw John and I at the mall;" It's amazing how often I see that in even published articles, and I have a writer friend who uses it all the time in manuscripts he sends me for critiquing. Same thing with "who/whom:" ("I thought of who I'd seen at the party that evening," and so on.) I can correct it in a critigue because it's requested, so to speak, but in person, I bite my tongue.
ReplyDelete"And I" makes me grind my teeth, as well, Elizabeth.
DeleteAnd the companion use “John and me went to the beach”. Grinding teeth here. Elisabeth
DeleteElisabeth, that is a big one for me, too. If you would say, "She gave it to me," then why would it change if "She gave it to Tim and me?" Ouch. That one hurts.
DeleteBut you can understand the confusion, becuase "He and I went to the store" is correct. It's the difference betweeen when it's the subject or object in a sentence. Thank you, sentence diagramming... I loved that part of my English class. Weirdly.
DeleteI had one teacher in the seventh grade teach sentence diagramming, but that was my only exposure to it in 16 years of school. I know what I think is the correct order for a sentence, but can’t explain why. — Pat S
DeleteA teacher once told me to take the other person out of the sentence to see if it still sounded okay. “My mother saw I at the mall” Nope. I still use that with my grown kids. (I can’t help myself.)
DeleteThat was "in a critique," not "in a critigue . . ."
ReplyDeleteThat feels like a function of dyslexia... p q g d b just think about how little is actually different among those letters and if your brain turns things around...
DeleteHallie, when I was taking classes for my master degree in special ed, I had a professor who illustrated that difference using a chair. No matter which direction you turn it, even upside-down, it is still a chair.
DeleteI refrain from correcting others, but I cringe when I hear or see in print the following:
ReplyDeleteHopefully instead of “I hope.”
“Hopefully I’ll win the lottery” is wrong on so many levels. Rover looked hopefully at his food dish is correct usage of the adverb.
Lay instead of lie. The book lays on the table, but Rover — again — lies on the couch.
They invited Rover and I instead of Rover and me. Or him and me.
I could go on.
Yes, I know the language changes.
DeleteYes, language evolves but the core principles of how words relate to one another (subject v object and the associated verbs) don't. Break the rules, sure -- but for goodness sake, please KNOW THEM BEFORE YOU BREAK THEM. [rant over; apologies]
DeleteHanged or hung: The criminal was hanged even if he was well-hung.
DeleteLol, Margo!!
DeleteI was 60 years old before I learned "most important" (not "most importantly") is correct usage.
DeleteHopefully... oops... that's something I use all the time.
DeleteI have also learned to refrain from correcting others.
ReplyDeleteBut I still cringe when I see these common grammatical errors in print:
affect vs effect, it's vs its.
Especially with newspapers cutting back their editorial staff... seems like those kinds of errors are proliferating
DeleteEnglish is a fluid, ever-changing language, but that does not mean that current dictionaries and current books on style are necessarily correct, no matter what some self-centered, lazy whippersnappers try to push. Many words that had an accent aigu on the final "e" have dropped the diacritical mark in common spelling, as with coupe and frappe (which are now pronounced "coop" and "frap"), but, with all respects to your mother, Hallie, I will insist in "fort-tay" until my dying day. My mother would insist "poinsettia" was pronounced "poinsetta" In this case she was wrong but I loved her anyway. However, I have no love for the jackals who insist on placing only one space at the end of a sentence before starting a new one, or those who insist on no spaces either before or after an em dash. And don't get me started on those fools who don't believe in the Oxford comma!
ReplyDeleteJerry: Count me in on the Oxford comma!
DeleteI’m a believer, Jerry! Elisabeth
DeleteI've gotten used to one space at the end of a sentence - because that's not grammar, it's technology. The spacing looks better now that computers introduced variable-width fonts instead of fixed width, such as Courier. You needed the extra space then to set off the sentence. Now you don't. But I work in tech, so maybe that's why.
DeleteBut you'll pry my Oxford comma out of my cold, dead, and clammy hands!
One space at the end of sentences... my publisher requires it. Two-spaces-after is dead. And it was a clue in a mystery show on TV the other day (Elsbeth)! It showed that the person who wrote the "suicide" note was much older than the "suicide" victim.
DeleteI cheered when I heard Elsbeth say that, Hallie, because I was taught two spaces! Alas, I think Liz is right. (Nothing personal, Liz!) — Pat S
DeleteNOT MELLOW HERE!!!! Thank you, Hallie, for slashing 'gifted' -- egregious to use it as a verb, in my view ...and I'll leave it there.
ReplyDeleteUsing "gifted" for "gave" makes me cringe!
DeleteBut "presented" would be a nifty substitution - HA HA HA
DeleteWhen the weather forecasters say “fill” instead of “feel” and “hell” instead of “hail”, I correct them, but they are on tv and don’t hear me. I know it’s a southern pronunciation issue but it’s very irritating!
ReplyDeleteIf those characters could talk back to us...
DeleteHallie, inquiring minds must know. Was this post inspired by yesterday, March 8, being National Grammarians’ Day? :) Elisabeth
ReplyDeleteJust a fortuitous coincidence, Elisabeth
DeleteIn general turning nouns into verbs (gerunds?) is a needle scratch.
ReplyDeleteLike Annette, I've been mispronouncing forte all my life. Guess I'll just starting using the word metier, instead. Few people would recognize the spoken version of forte, and metier isn't a common word these days, either. Reading centuries old books made me realize our language today is not nearly as rich as it once was, which is a shame.
Thought of another one, but it's a print error I see all the time: Lead vs. led. Lead is either the present tense of "to guide", or a base metal. Led is the proper past tense of "to lead".
DeleteWay to bury the lede, Karen!
DeleteGood one, Jerry!
DeleteYes, but, "forTAY" is correct when it refers to a musical notation.
DeleteLess and fewer….nobody understands qualitative versus quantitative.
ReplyDeleteAmen!
DeleteYes!
DeleteAgree. That is nails on a chalkboard to me.
DeleteThose drive me nuts, too...
DeleteEvery example you all have written! And so much more. Suzette Ciancio
ReplyDeleteI know the difference between "and I" and "and me" - and I still get it wrong. FORT? That sounds wrong to my ear. Oh well.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you, Hallie. I rarely say anything aloud, but the meme "I'm silently correcting your grammar" applies to me. I'm particular grumpy about "less" or "fewer." Also "reply back" or "revert back." I hear those a lot in my day job. I want to break into the conversation screaming, "You don't need the back. It's inherent in the meaning of reply and revert!" But I don't. I want to keep my job.
I also know "lay" and "lie" - but it's another one that trips me up all the time in practice.
Deletelay lie lain laid ... those trip me up
DeleteWhat causes my teeth to commence grinding is the chirpy "Welcome in" when I enter a store. The "in" has no purpose but the phrase seems to have metastasized in the last few years.
DeleteFrom Celia: I’m humming “Let’s call the whole thing off. Luckily my English accent allows me lots of speaking latitude. Though I do say fortay as well as herb, not ‘erb. So much to correct, so little time. But I’m not an English major I’ll be quiet for once. Great post though Hallie. Now where should I have put the commas? Julia says I use too many of them in my writing. I’m lucky that she helps me. Thank you Julia.
ReplyDeleteCelia (and Rhys), how do you pronouce Worcestershire as in sauce?
DeleteIt's so funny to me that Brits do pronounce the "h" in herb, but we don't. You'd think it would be the opposite.
DeleteFrom Celia: Margo, I would probably say 'Worster' sauce, but I do have some American in my speech by now. I was laughing with my sister in Law over 'respite'. Whichever way I said it she pointed out that she said it the other way. Though we both agree we need more, much more of it.
DeleteKaren, I think that herb keeps the h in England because it's not using the French pronunciation, but whether the word herb started as Anglo Saxon or as a Romance language I do not know.
Me too, but more like wus-ter. Now if we could only get chefs to learn how to say it, or even just not mangle it every time they say it! They can have whatever herb or 'erb they want.
DeleteI DESPISE irregardless, prioritize, and myself when used as a subject, not as a reflexive or emphasis. I sigh heavily at the incorrect usage of I and me, affect/effect, less/fewer, and all the other common incorrect grammatical constructions. I've given up correcting anyone because although I agree language does change, this is more about people, not language.
ReplyDeleteI let most of it go, too... yes it's about people
DeleteAn ad that tells me "less" when it should say "fewer" will never win me over.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you're not sure which personal pronoun to use, diagram the sentence in your head. A preposition ALWAYS takes an objective one. And for the sake of all that is holy, don't start a sentence with "her," as in "Her and I went shopping this morning." Or "him." And "these ones" is redundant.
ReplyDeleteAs my neighbors are lately wont to observe, "I know that's right." '
LOVED sentence diagramming!! I still can do it. Best use ever for a ruler.
DeleteI was always one of the geeks who loved sentence diagramming, too, and I still enjoy it. I don't think they even teach it in school anymore, do they?
DeleteAmerican vs Canadian is how I learn to let things go. I listen to audiobooks, and it grates on me to enter the American foyer, rather than the Canadian from the French foy-a (pronunciation). There are many words like that – alright ignore it as it is cultural.
ReplyDeleteThere is always the grammar rule from back in the days when these were part of the curriculum – if you have two people in a sentence and the way you would say it is me or us, then the way to say it is the same – probably not well explained, but if ‘George and I’ was substituted by we, then use I, but if substituted by us, use me. Don’t get me started on “I and my friends”…
I am currently enjoying ‘Have You Eaten Grandma?’ by Gyles Brandreth. Hilarious! To quote; “In this “irreverent and conversational” (Booklist) guide to proper punctuation and so much more, Gyles Brandreth explores the linguistic horrors of our times, tells us what we've been doing wrong, and shows us how to can get it right every time. “ If you find it, enjoy it.
Love Giles!
DeleteMy biggest objection is when people (I am speaking of news reporters as well as ordinary people, like husbands) use there's instead of there are. "There are many reasons"...not "There's many reasons..." Spare my ears!
ReplyDeleteOrdinary people, eh? LOL
DeleteWhat about the very common British "have got" instead of simply saying "have"?
I grew up with a mother who believed in correct usage of language, and she often corrected us, nicely, so that we would learn the correct way to say things. I did the same with my kids. I now live in Pittsburgh, PA area and the one thing that drives me crazy here is that they don't feel they need to use the verb to be. They say things like "it needs washed" and It makes me cringe.
ReplyDeleteReally?!? I sort of like it!
DeleteThere are a handful of words whose shape does not fit the "standard" form of their parts of speech, and many people modify/mangle them to look right. Thusly they make irregular words less threatening.
ReplyDeleteThusly!
DeleteLay and lie are now misused even by newscasters, and I’ve even heard supposedly educated people say between you and I. It helps that I majored in modern languages and also took Latin because I know about cases. My pet peeve last year was that King Charles was coronated. No , he was crowned!
ReplyDeleteAnd yet it's ok to say "the coronation of King Charles"?
Delete"And he's only seventeen years of age!" Sigh. Professional soccer commentary.
ReplyDeleteI am a duly sworn officer of the grammar police. Oxford comma forever. I never knew fort was the correct pronunciation of forte. I am always learning something new here. Nothing chagrins me more than publishing a comment here, only to go back later and see the errors with no way to edit!
ReplyDeleteI agree Brenda - no way to edit errors is maddening.
DeleteI blame it on autocorrect.
DeleteOne mistake people make is HER & SHE. She is the noun Her is the object of a verb or preposition. It is so often misused as a noun. ERRR! It should be SHE & I went shopping.
ReplyDeleteI have been reminding myself every day that English is a living language and that what's acceptable changes over time. I too have the voice of my mom in my head. She pointed to the commercial tagline "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should" and let us know in no uncertain terms that it should be "Winston tastes good AS a cigarette should". Lay and lie was another pet peeve, as was the difference between can and may. As for nouns becoming verbs, I'm glad mom didn't live to see the explosive growth of that usage--there are so many examples. A recent ad tells us we can "business differently".
ReplyDeleteAaaaaagh!
DeleteMy then-6-year-old grandson suddenly started sprinkling the word "literally" in his conversation last year. Wonder where he heard that. Usually it was incorrect, but I couldn't bring myself (yet) to tell him the distinction between literally and figuratively. He'll get there.
ReplyDeleteI can't resist yelling "fewer, not less" and many other grammar-related corrections at the radio or TV, and I just can't say "fort" instead of "fortay." Fortunately for me, I often am assigned the (official) role of Grammarian at my Toastmasters meeting, so I get to call out grammar errors to my fellow members and suggest how they can be corrected. Bliss!
When kids mangle language, it's lovely. Or pick up phrases from the and try to reuse them. Once my daughter said she wanted a particular toy and when I asked where she thought I could find it, she said "At a theatre near you."
DeleteMargie, my 10 year old granddaughter uses "literally" too. It must be the new playground slang.
ReplyDeleteMy 54 year old daughter constantly used like - "Like he said, like go away, like ok." Like totally!
"The language I have learnt these forty years, My native English, now I must forgo;"
That sounds like what we used to call Valley speak.
Delete^ of course that was when she was in high school before her PhD in English.
ReplyDeleteI rarely correct, but cringe inside. My cringe-inducing pet peeve is use of subjective pronouns following a preposition: “Mark gave the tickets to Bruce and I.” Between you and I, the play was not all it was cracked up to be.” Everyone seems to do it these days… even the pundits on TV! 😵💫
ReplyDeleteWonderful topic today, Hallie! I agree with all that you have said. My mother always had to correct the grammar of others, too. it was bad enough that she corrected family members, but I cringed when she did it with total strangers.
ReplyDeleteForte is a word I seldom if ever use aloud but when I come across it in a book, I pronounce correctly in my head. I seldom hear the word but when I do, it is invariably pronounced wrong, so I have to correct them in my head. I get so annoyed when the local news readers say things wrong. I do not like it when they say ofTen, pronouncing the T, but they all do it now so I'm beginning to think I must be in the wrong.
Bust using 'homed' when it should be 'honed' are other words that are so often misused I'm beginning to think I must be wrong about them too.
Most people usually get this one right, but recently two different authors mentioned that something "fell between the cracks."
I could go on and on, but what is the point? Like spitting in the wind.
What's wrong with "fell between the cracks" - what am I missing?
DeleteBetween the cracks would be the boards. Things usually fall through the cracks.
DeleteThanks for this great topic Hallie, I love discussions of language.
ReplyDeleteOf course where would we be without Yogi Berra's great sayings:
When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
You can observe a lot by just watching.
It ain't over till it's over.
It's like déjà vu all over again.
No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.
Baseball is 90% mental and the other half is physical.
A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore.
Plain spoken and hilariously profound
DeleteI'm pretty mellow with language and I like making up words just to drive my copyeditors bananas :) The one thing that drives me batty is when people say "goes" instead of "said" to indicate speaking. As in "And then he goes, 'Do you want fried with that?'" It always jars me and I have to stop myself from asking, "Where did he go?"
ReplyDeleteReminding me of a wonderful song in CHCAGO that Velma sings about her and her (dead) sister's act... I go... She goes... But I can't do it alone.
DeleteSomething that has really made me grind my teeth lately is the total blurring of "into" and "in to". As in "the car turned into a driveway." Found in a recently (traditionally) published novel. The mental picture completely brought me out of the story.
ReplyDeleteAutocorrect is responsible for the perpetuation of many errors because it learns mistakes from common usage. It will change "in to" into "into" without any prompting once you've finished writing one sentence and moved on to the next.
DeleteMy mother was a closet grammarian, Hallie. I often find myself channeling her when I mentally correct a "less" vs. "more" error. And when my husband asks if I'm "done" with a project, I can still hear Mom whisper, "A person in action cannot be 'done.' A person's action is 'finished.' Usually I just say, "I'm through." But now they all seem problematic to me!
ReplyDeleteBut but but... there's a wonderful irony when someone says to you, "Are you done?" - a sentence only delivered when clearly you are not.
DeleteAh, yes.
Delete70 comments at 8am in California so I have made a fast pass through the comments. I'll finish reading everyone's comments layer in the day.
ReplyDeleteMy choir director pronounced forte as - for-tay - for loud. I think I only use the word with music, so I should be safe from the pronunciation police.
California born and raised by patents raised in California, and I pronounce the H in herb. I had no idea that the "h" was supposed to be silent. I thought Martha Stewart was just being snobby when she dropped the "h".
Thank you, Edith, "infastructure" is now stuck in my head and I can't recall the correct word. Or at least the correct pronunciation of the correct word.
Word and name pronunciations are often adjusted for the area. I cannot say Vallejo with the "y" for the double "ll" but Carrillo with the "y" for the double "ll" is no problem.
The "For-tay" in music is correct. It has a different root. All the Spanish place names in California are challenging.
DeleteLove this discussion about grammar, Hallie. I can imagine that if your Mom was Deaf and fluent in Sign Language, she would probably correct your Signing instead of how to pronounce certain words.
ReplyDeleteMy Mom, an English teacher, is a grammarian and she would check my letters and often I wrote the letters in perfect grammar. It was rare that she needed to correct my grammar. I thought it was a given that all mothers did that.
Diana
So interesting... And btw my mother became deaf in her 50s and never learned to sign. It isolated her terribly.
DeleteI cringe, but I don’t correct.
ReplyDeleteI especially hate “ irregardless”. My high school English teachers would faint!
DebRo
When I was in my twenties, I worked as an assistant to a prominent Manhattan psychotherapist. Responding to a note from a former patient, she dictated a letter to me. The first line was, "I am sorry to hear your life is so difficult, and I hope it ends soon."
ReplyDeleteHa ha ha ha ha!! And did you send it??
DeleteAbsolutely
DeleteThese comments have been such fun to read. What irritates me most is when many of the errors mentioned above end up in supposedly "edited," traditionally published fiction. As an Indie author, I work hard to make sure my work is as error-free as possible, and then I read or listen to audio books, sometimes bestsellers, laden with cringe-worthy mistakes.
ReplyDeleteI agree, but I think for the vast majority of readers those errors glide right by.
Delete"Mary Poppins wrote the March children trapezing" ...ummm, maybe that was the Banks children?
ReplyDeleteBANKS!! thanks!!
DeleteEven though it's correct, I hate the word utilize instead of use.
ReplyDeleteMe too. And actualize. And...
DeleteNaw... I've reach the point where I've stopped worrying about what the so-called grammar rules might have to say. Life's definitely too short. Lay, lie, schmlay, schmlie...whatever...
ReplyDeleteI've got so used to it, it doesn't matter.
I do find the use of "gifted" when "gave" is clearly the right word annoying, but again, whatever....
Of course, it IS forte.
Anonymous, you brought up a word that was "maddening" to me when years ago, late teens, I read Thomas Hardy's Far from the Madding Crowd. I knew the word "maddening" but no the word "madding." At first I thought it was just an older version of "maddening." Of course, I was wrong. Hardy took the name of his novel (1874) from a line in the poem "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard" (1751) by Thomas Gray. So, the word is an old one, but the subtle difference is that "maddening" means that the crowd is driving someone insane, while “madding” means that the crowd itself is insane. Words are fun.
ReplyDeleteFascinating!
DeleteFeel good as opposed to feel well. One is tactile; one is health related.
ReplyDeleteSaying orientate instead of orient. Ack!
It's everywhere, but I cannot abide "journal" as a verb.
ReplyDelete"Speak out" instead of "speak." Local news stations are especially guilty. I "speak out" about injustice; if I'm being interviewed about the coming cicada invasion, I just speak about it.
ReplyDelete'Gifted' as a verb makes me CRAZY, Hallie! I am SO with you.
ReplyDelete