The Hooligans at peak teen would get into trouble–as teens do–and, of course, Hub and I would discipline them with loss of privileges or groundings–as parents do–but I am so terrible at conflict that when voices got raised or doors were slammed, I was beside myself. I could never sustain the feeling of being at odds.
The Hooligans used to set a timer on their phone for twenty minutes and every single time, I’d crack like a walnut and pop up at their door, asking, “Are you okay? Are we okay? Should we talk about this? Want to hug it out?” One of the last times this happened, Hooligan 1 in complete exasperation, said, “Mom, stop! I was wrong. It’s okay that you yelled at me. I deserved it.” Then he hugged me because I still felt bad.
Now, lest you think I couldn’t discipline them when they needed it, I am the mom who had them hold a bar of soap in their mouth for thirty seconds when they screamed, “I hate you!” Because, no, we are not having that. But the one thing I never assumed was that I was always right and I feel like that is the major difference between me and the generation who parented me because Hub and I have talked and neither of us can ever remember our moms (or dads) apologizing for anything ever.
How about you, Reds? Are you always right?
LUCY BURDETTE: Just ask John–I’m very definite! Maybe it’s because of my personality, or maybe I’m just enough older than you Jenn, or maybe because my kids were my stepkids–switching between households makes everything a bit more complicated and fraught. Anyway, I still think kids do better with clear boundaries and expectations, and the current popularity of “gentle parenting” makes me crazy.:) See, I told you I was definite!
RHYS BOWEN: I think I’ve become better at apologizing when I’m wrong as I’ve gotten older. When I was young I found it hard to admit it. With four children I ran a tight ship. We were the parents. There were rules. We went through all the usual teenage dramas with three girls. “I can’t believe you’ve ruined my life!” etc when I wouldn’t let them go to a party.
Interestingly enough my third daughter, Jane, was very young for her grade at school (she’d been promoted up a grade). So there were things she didn’t feel comfortable with. She’d be on the phone with a friend and I’d hear her say “A party at Jake’s house? Oh, I bet my mom won’t let me go.” She’d look over at me and make a face, indicating she didn’t want to go. I’d say. “You’re right. You’re not going.” And she’d say into the phone. “See. I knew she wouldn’t let me.” We were a good team.
After three girls Dominic was so easy as a teenager. He came home late once. We said, “You were supposed to be in by ten on a week night. You’re grounded for a week.” He said, “That seems fair enough” and went to his room. He’s still really easy going!
DEBORAH CROMBIE: Such an interesting thing to think about, Jenn. I don’t remember my parents ever admitting they were wrong about anything, or apologizing. Looking back, they probably weren’t wrong about much, except their politics, which I absolutely was not allowed to argue about. But still, what a generational shift.
As a divorced mom of a pre-teen then teenager, I think I tried extra hard to set rules. Unlike in your daughter Jane’s case, Rhys, they were not appreciated! And like Jenn, I’m super non-confrontational and hated for us to be mad at each other. Somehow we got through it, but I think boys might be easier.
HALLIE EPHRON: Wrong? Who me??? Absolutely. I remember when one of my daughters enraged me so much (why? I have no idea… and I must have been exhausted, or maybe that’s just my guilty conscience trying to come up with a reasonable explanation) that I hauled off and slapped her on the bottom.
Stunned silence followed, and then she ran crying up to her bedroom.
I NEVER hit my kids. And yet I had done just that. I snuck up to her room soon after, knocked sheepishly at the door, crept inside and apologized.
HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN: This is a great question. One of the great joys of my life was realizing that I’m not always right. That someone else might have a good idea. It’s really quite freeing, and has changed my life.
One of the things about being a reporter is that you have to have a careful balance of what you believe is right with what you might not know. Again, being open minded about the truth whatever that is is important to me in every way. And when it comes to writing my novels, I know an editor might have a terrific idea, and I might not be right about what I wrote.
My problem is I am often very convinced that I am right. And I can be very persuasive, I will admit to you. And I can get quite carried away with my persuasion. Sometimes, when I’m trying to convince Jonathan of something, I will stop and say – – you know, I’m actually not quite sure about this, and I know I am winning you over here, but fair warning , I could be wrong.
All I know about raising kids is how I see my stepson and his wife bringing up our adorable grandsons. I would not have made some of the parental decisions they did, and I would have been much tougher. (As on the day one of them was whining, maybe 10 years ago, about how everybody had eaten all the cereal that he was hoping to have.
His mother suggested that she would go to the grocery and get more. And I said “Not a chance. Life is tough, buddy, eat the cereal that’s left.”
And he happily did.
And I have to say, even though I would have made different decisions for them along the way, the kids turned out to be spectacular.
So, I was wrong. (Maybe.)
JULIA SPENCER-FLEMING: Oh, I'm an apologizer. SUCH an apologizer. As a mother, I think it's so important to let kids know 1) we don't always get it right and 2) when that happens, we can acknowledge it. Model how you want them to be, right?
I'm also a promoter of - don't take this the wrong way - weaponized apologizing. Yes! Have you screwed up at work? Forgot to order the baby shower decorations? Spilled wine on someone as you walked to your table in a restaurant. Apologize! Apologize lavishly, abjectly and continuously until people forgive you just to get you to stop. It's impossible to remain mad at someone who will. Not. Stop. Accepting the blame. Try is sometime!
How about you, Readers? Are you an "always right" sort of person or is admitting a mistake easy for you?
I am definitely not the "always right" person . . . and I'd be the first to apologize because I am not at all confrontational . . . .
ReplyDeleteSame! I just feel like conflict is so unnecessary! Probably, why I just want to write books of one liners and have no drama. LOL.
DeleteI don’t like confrontation, either. I probably apologize for things that aren’t even my fault. I do, however, go toe-to-toe with my husband because he is always sure he is always right. Ugh, it infuriates me (especially since more often than I want to admit, he is right). When he realizes he was wrong, he apologizes and the wind goes right out of my sails. (And I think I apologized to our son if I was wrong for the same reason Jenn said — my parents never did.). — Pat S
ReplyDeleteHa! Hub and I are both pretty definitive (as Lucy says) but we talk things out for ridiculously long amounts of time until we are in accord.
DeleteInteresting topic. My parents certainly never apologized for anything, but my sisters and I were generally easy. My mom slapped me exactly once, when I was a rowdy ninth grader, and I'm sure I well deserved it (and looking back as an adult, she was going through a very stressful time in her life). She also said "Damnation!", the only time I ever heard her swear.
ReplyDeleteI had one difficult son (the older one) and one easy one. I'm not above apologizing to my kids, but I don't remember needing to except one big one. The difficult child was over his horrible years by ninth grade, but then the next year my husband and I told the kids we were divorcing. Allan was angry about it and smoldered for a couple of months. One day after I'd moved out but before the boys started living with me, he was home from school (not really sick), and I had to get something from the house. I went upstairs to see how he was. I sat on the edge of his bed and said I was sorry about splitting up the family, but that I had been so desperately unhappy with his father. Allan sat up and said, "I never thought about how YOU felt." Things changed from there on out.
Same son and impatient husband clashed big time during Allan's middle school years when his body and brain tried to figure out their new reality. I'm sure his dad never apologized once. I navigated a different path of loving firmness during those years, and I'm entirely gratified that my son is the most caring and patient father anyone could ever want, and that he did not carry on his father's dysfunction.
DeleteIt's such a huge step when kids realize their parent has feelings, too. I remember reading a quote "Be patient with your mom, it's her first time living, too." That one really resonated.
DeleteJenn, we should, perhaps, all be more patient with each other because it is our first time living for all of us. Elisabeth
Delete"Weaponized apologies." YES. I love this term and have definitely done the whole groveling until forgiven routine. Please note, I don't have kids and can't speak to that part of the topic, although I'd like to think I could accept responsibility for being wrong with them. I can't, however, recall my parents ever doing so.
ReplyDeleteI swear it's generational.
DeleteGrowing up with traditional Japanese parents, I NEVER heard them apologize to me for what they did or said. They were the rulers of the household.
ReplyDeleteI used to be the "always right" person correcting others for their mistakes. But I am a recovering perfectionist so I am less harsh in my judgment of others (and myself).
I like that Grace, I think I will aspire to be the recovering perfectionist as well!
DeleteOh, I like that, too.
DeleteGrowing up with a cop for a dad and a mother who was the chief law enforcement officer of the house, oh did we have to apologize if we were wrong.
ReplyDeleteBut only if we were wrong/made a mistake. And in the case of dealing with others, my parents would back us if we were right. In my case, that led to a problem when I was in 7th grade and had a complete a-hole for a homeroom teacher. It got to the point that the phone rang at my house at 8am one morning because the teacher has already thrown me out of class. The principal said, "Hello Mrs. Roberts, this is (his name here). I have Jay in the office..." My mother said, "HE JUST GOT THERE! What could he possibly have done?" The minute the name of the teacher came out of the principal's mouth, my mother said, "That's it, clear a room. I'm bringing the boxing gloves for them." The principal said, "What, are you kidding? Jay would kill him." When she learned of the reason I'd been thrown out (a BS excuse on the teacher's part), she reamed him a new one. Not to be unbalanced, she also let me have it with strict admonition to just sit in the class and say and do nothing from now on until the regular classes started each day so that the teacher couldn't make up things to throw me out for.
There was no forced apology if we didn't do something. Which has led to the here and now where I take great exception to being told I'm wrong or that I've made a mistake when it is plain as day that I didn't.
I own up to whatever I've actually done wrong when I do it, but I don't make a habit of being wrong in the first place. LOL!
I like your mom. She sounds like she was a pip!
DeleteWorking with children in a boarding school situation for so many years, I learned a lot about handling kids before I had my own. But of course, it's very different when it's your own. All of the problems seem a result of your own personal failings. My son is "cut off my shirt tail" emotionally and so when he was an adolescent we had clashes. I did apologize sometimes and so did he. When he developed a serious mental illness in his late teens our bond was tested. I told him he could control his outbursts if he chose and would have to if he wanted to live at home, because I had provided an emotionally safe childhood for him and I was determined to provide the same for his little sister, ten years younger. He saw the logic in this and thereafter tried hard never to say anything that would frighten her. At the same time he knew I loved him and would go to all lengths to help him. When he was sunk in despair in his off-campus dorm and I could not reach him, I climbed up the fire escape and went in his window. There were other episodes even more challenging, for several years. In some ways you could say we were melded together by fire. After Jon, my daughter seemed like a breeze.
ReplyDeleteOnce I had teaching experience I rarely lost my temper in the classroom. Firmness and humor were my style. If I ever made a mistake, and was sharp or sarcastic, usually through tiredness, I tried to apologize immediately, in front of the class. (Selden)
Selden, I sincerely hope you are compiling a file of all the answers and comments you have posted here. Your life was made for a book - maybe even a TV movie. I am always caught up in the wonder of your life experiences. -- Victoria
DeleteI so agree, Victoria. Selden, I want to read your book!
DeleteWow. Selden, you are amazing! I, too, would love to read a book of your life stories.
DeleteThere were times when my dad wished our family was more like the British Army, and he could give an order and have it obeyed right away. So sorry dad! (Apologizer here). He actually WOULD apologize when warranted, as he hated conflict. My mom got angry pretty easily and was not so inclined to apologize. In my own parenting, I definitely apologized--there were times when I was wrong, acting out of anger, or just so tired I couldn't deal any longer.
ReplyDeleteParental exhaustion is definitely a thing. I really only yelled when I was just sooo tired.
DeleteMy parents' generation did not apologize to their kids. I was 45 when I took on the role of substitute mom to two babies. I'd just lost both of my parents and my job of 10 years, all unexpectedly, all in the span of 4 months. To say the next few years were frazzled would be a gross understatement. The boys' teenage years were hard, and there were times I did apologize to them and tried to explain why my rules were different from some of the kids they chose to be friends with. They are young men now, and I couldn't be prouder of them--the self-awareness, the ability to correct course, to apologize, to grow.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I love about adults who apologize -- it's teaches the younger generation that it's okay. Our family motto is: "Own your bullsh*t." The dudes still say when they screw up.
DeleteAdolescence for my three kids was one continuous bargaining discussion. I was honest about (some) of my HS escapades and established the "no questions" policy: "Call home for a ride, at any time, from anywhere. And if your friends need a bed for the night, they have one." One of my daughter's teachers pulled me aside and told me my kids would resent the new parental portal monitoring their kids' grades, and not to do it. I never did. I trusted them. I also had my own intelligence network to keep an eye on things.
ReplyDelete"My own intelligence network" -- I love that, Margaret!
DeleteWe had that same rule when they began to get around the city with friends. "If anything makes you worried, call anytime day or night, and no questions asked." I think they appreciated that safety net.
DeleteI also came from the generation that was never wrong. I look back at my mom and realize she was probably terrified of raising us and doing the wrong thing, so she defaulted to whatever she did was right and we just had to live with it. I took me a number of years to unlearn that behavior and then brave the dreaded confrontations that would transpire when I realized I needed to apologize. As the years have passed I have become more comfortable with acknowledging I am wrong and doing it as gracefully as possible. I actually have found that it startles folks when I say, "I was wrong about..." Maybe, if we're lucky, we can train a new generation to feel free to apologize and move on without all the angst attached to it. -- Victoria
ReplyDeleteYES! I always taught the boys that the beauty of a sincere apology was that the problem was no longer theirs once they apologized - it was up to the other person to accept it or not.
Delete“Because I said so.” Never wrong. No apologies.
ReplyDeleteOh my gosh, Brenda! I forgot that statement! You’re exactly right (see what I did there!); that is exactly what I heard from my dad. — Pat S
DeleteFlashback!!!!!
DeleteOne hundred percent a quote from my mom.
DeleteBoth my parents were quite free about admitting they were wrong after the fact - or that they could be wrong. I think that's because a) my dad's parents were quite willing to admit they could be wrong (and that's something because they were born in 1917 and 1922) and b) my mom grew up with an authoritarian father who NEVER admitted to being wrong, who told her she'd never amount to much (she eventually earning an associates, bachelor's and master's degrees in nursing) and she didn't want to be that way. That is not to say there weren't rules, but both my parents could admit, "Hey, we might have screwed that one up."
ReplyDeleteSo I am not adverse to admitting, "Hey, I might have screwed that one up." Especially since The Hubby was a little more reluctant, or at least a little slower, to admit he was wrong. Fallout from HIS father.
Since I got a beautiful bouquet of flowers yesterday, as well as dinner (that The Girl paid for), and both kids said how thankful they were I was their mom, I guess I didn't do too badly.
But The Boy said recently that while it sucked, he was glad The Hubby was as firm as he was "because I definitely needed it." Maybe that's his way of admitting HE was wrong - even though he claimed to be quite the injured party at the time.
LOL - I love hearing how your son has grown. It took my youngest a couple of years to see that perhaps he was "the problem" during his difficult years.
DeleteJenn, it happens fast, doesn't it? Also, over the weekend, The Girl said, "It's a little surprising that sometimes I hear myself talk and you or Dad come out." :)
DeleteGreat topic! I apologize if I accidentally cut someone off, bump someone because I did not see that person, or if someone tells me that I hurt their feelings.
ReplyDeleteThis is so complicated because I have some questions.
HOW do you know if you are wrong? HOW do you know if the apology is genuine?
Someone would apologize to me for doing something THEN do the same thing again, so I lost respect for that person because the apology feels fake to me. Or a parent would apologize for something their child did when the child is old enough to apologize.
How does the child learn if their parents do not teach them? When I was a child, if I hurt someone as a child, my parents would explain to me why it was wrong and I would have to apologize to the child whom I hurt.
Exactly! How can a person grow up to be a critical thinker if they never question their own behavior?
DeleteDo some people refuse to apologize because they are afraid that they will "lose face"?
ReplyDeleteI think some people just can't be wrong because it challenges their perception of themselves -- a sort of narcissism?
DeleteMy parents, who were often wrong and rarely fair, never apologized. My mother still doesn't. So my own sense of justice gets a workout, trying to be as fair as possible.
ReplyDeleteI've pretty literally raised two families, since my oldest daughter from my first marriage was 14 when her first half-sister came along, and 17 when I had my last child. Everything was different: I was very young the first time, not at all self confident, much less financially secure, and my two husbands could not be more different; Steve was a much more present and involved father. My oldest has often complained that she didn't get the same advantages as her sisters, but how could she have? I parented them so differently. I've apologized, but have wondered what different choices I could have made.
You do the best you can in the moment with the knowledge you have in that moment. Once you've apologized it's up to your daughter to accept it or not. I bet she'll come to understand more as she gets older.
DeleteShe's 54, but I hope you're right, Jenn.
DeleteKaren
I am fairly good at apologizing if I'm wrong, and sometimes just to keep the peace! My parents, on the other hand, actually said things like, "you'll do it while you live under my roof and like it", "my way or the highway" and the ever popular, "because I said so." I never had kids, but I promised myself that if I ever did, I'd listen to them and their points of view rather than make unilateral decisions about things on their behalf. And yes, I stink at conflict! You'll find me under the table trying to figure out a way out.
ReplyDeleteI'll meet you under the table, Kait!
DeleteI do admit when I am wrong and I do apologize, we are all human and we make mistakes and when mistakes are done I do apologize . There is nothing wrong admitting to the wrong and apologizing . I really enjoyed reading this post, Thank you. Alicia Haney. aliciabhaney(at)sbcglobal(dot)net
ReplyDeleteThank you, Alicia!
DeleteLooking back, we were lucky. Our first 2 lived in rural areas, and sadly in both their cases they had major deaths of kids in their schools just before graduation, so were well aware of drinking and driving. Interestingly, the Ontario police were very strict about fining the parents if an underage drinking fest was held in their house, and so that put a stop to that. Girl child did not attend festivities, and boy-child had an extremely conscientious group of friends, and although it was an all night party, we were not worried. Third child lived in a less rural society, and although mostly a good kid, had a tendency to overdrink – and early in the night. That meant he was calling for help long before midnight, and somehow how worked out with the older sister to come and pick him up and drive him puking all the way home. He thought we did not know. We never said anything, because they had already worked it out.
ReplyDeleteYesterday for Mother’s Day he (now 35) sent: “You are some good mudder. You made pretty decent kids that seem to be doing just fine at life and not total screwups. You may avoid the ice flow yet. Or at least. Maybe Laura will move you in. That’ll be nice. “ To which I replied “How sweet until the part about Laura looking after us…I’ll take the ice-flow.”
LOL! That's hilarious, Margo!
DeleteI just shared this post with my mom and she said, "I'm sorry!" LOL. It's never too late!
ReplyDeleteLike Hank, I have struck my children. A good smuck on the bum when they young and were ridiculously doing something unsafe – about to run across the road type thing – struck home the point better than any number of time-outs. It surprised more than hurt. I sometimes would like to try it on the grandchildren. They just listen (maybe ) to the lecture and then go on doing it anyway. Daughter warns them that I will give them the side-eye, and they better watch out – and they do.
ReplyDeleteAs for apologizing – not often. I am told so regularly that I am wrong about my memories from someone who insists that she is right, that I guess I just cower and go away. Chicken-poop I am.
Oh, the memory thing is a hot button. Funny how we all remember things differently.
DeleteThat was Hallie that one time, not me.
DeleteWhat an interesting question. And it's true, my mom (a very kind woman) never apologized. It wasn't thinking she was always right. It was more that she was kind of unsure of herself. Married very young, 3 kids in 4 years (!), no higher ed though she was very intelligent and up to date on news and child rearing, too. My dad was the emotionally available parent who would talk things out. With my kids, I was the one who knocked on the door after a flare up w/ teens. And we talked it out. I think they know we did our best
ReplyDeleteI think it wasn't that they thought they were right so much as it just wasn't done. Parents were the authority. Period. Full stop. Nice to see it's changing a bit.
DeleteI agree, Jenn, my parents NEVER apologized. And it was totally-- do as I say and no questions. We were terrible at that, and my parents called us the "Yeah-but" kids. As in--when they'd tell us something, we'd say, "Yeah, but---" And then proceed to tell them why they were wrong or we shouldn't have to do whatever. I do remember, fondly, though, my stepfather telling us: "If I say STOP, just stop. And then ask why."
ReplyDeleteThat was--and is--really a genius thing.
Lucy, there are miles and miles between “strict limits” and the flat out “right or wrong MOTHER is RIGHT always.” Fortunately, I had strict limits parents, instead of parents infallible parents. Elisabeth
ReplyDelete