RHYS BOWEN: Like the rest of the Reds I get letters all the time telling me I’ve got something wrong. It seems that readers get great delight from scoring a point against authors, whether it's a typo on page 54 and would you please go back to print, or some fact that they are sure is not right. Much of the time it is they who have got it wrong. Clare and I are just in the middle of copy edits for our next Molly Murphy book and the editor has queried our time line in some of the innovations we mention. However Clare, the most meticulous researcher in the universe, can quote an article in a trade publication or a lawsuit in the NYT that proves we are right.
It's funny because we are writing fiction. We should be able to make up what we like. But if we are writing about a real time and place then accuracy is important, at least it is to me. I want to take my reader to that time and place and make them feel that they are there. For the early Molly books I went to New York and walked every street that Molly would have walked. I got a letter saying “the distance she walked was quite impossible.” I replied, “I walked it.”
For The Paris Assignment I got a letter from an Australian woman saying that nobody would have flown out from England before 1970. They would have taken a ship. Again I replied, “I did.”
The one thing you absolutely can’t get wrong is guns and trains. People who know about those are fanatics. In one Constable Evans book I had a missing dueling pistol when someone is found dead. I got all these letters saying “those pistols didn’t use bullets. So stupid etc etc” and I replied, “read on.” A chapter or two later a bullet is found and it is decided that the missing pistol has nothing to do with the murder.
But I got a letter from a train buff complaining that the train Molly had taken to San Francisco would not have stopped in Reno because that particular train would have taken the Winnemucca cut. Nothing happened in Reno. The train stopped then went on. No major plot point happened there. But it mattered to this man..
So I do work hard to get things right. IN one of the Constable Evans books Evan has to creep up a steep mountainside and wrestle a rifle away from a man. I asked John to help me figure out how he’d do this and we ended up wrestling on the kitchen floor, muttering "If I grab this, you'd grab that.". Our son (teenager at the time) came in, stared in utter horror, and asked “What are you doing?” But we got the scene right!
I’m really annoyed when I watch something on TV and they get it wrong. As John will attest, I complain quite often. One pet peeve is when a policeman has to break down a door. I don’t know if you’ve tried this, but you’d dislocate your shoulder long before the door would give, especially if it's a good old British solid oak door. However on TV the policeman is not even seen rubbing the affected shoulder afterward.
Another pet peeve is the number of times people are knocked unconscious in books. If they are knocked out in every single book in a series they are going to have severe brain problems. Concussions are not to be taken lightly, as I can tell you from the latest sports protocols. In a water polo match in which my granddaughter was playing the goalie was taken out after a ball hit her in the head. Not allowed to play for the rest of the game.
So I do understand. It is worth getting every detail right because it will matter to somebody. I’m always so tempted to write back saying “It’s fiction, dammit.”
Do you have any pet peeves about things that books and TV get wrong? And authors, have you had snippy letters telling you that you’ve goofed?
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ReplyDeleteNo pet peeves [although I do tend to get annoyed when the television show gets the police stuff wrong] . . . it would never occur to me to question something like a train stop in a book I was reading. [However, I did once rant and rave when an author had the FBI intern running an investigation in which her twin sister was the prime suspect . . . I just knew that simply could not happen . . . .]
ReplyDeleteSo often the amateur would never be allowed or has no good reason to solve!
DeleteI feel your pain, Rhys. No matter how much research I do, there will inevitably be something I get wrong. It's fiction!
ReplyDeleteThis happens to me with historical books, TV shows, and movies that are set during the period I know extremely well (the American Revolution). I've been crazy about this time period since I read JOHNNY TREMAIN in 5th grade. About the Revolution around NYC, in particular, I'm like one of those kids who can tell you all the Latin names of dinosaurs. So everyone assumed I would adore the show TURN which was set during the Revolution, around New York CIty. To me it was completely unwatchable. They took the names of real people and created a terrible soap opera around them; they had all the Long Island and Connecticut people played by British and Australian actors, so the accents were all over the map; they made English officer Lt. Col. John Simcoe into a psychopath. I was disgusted and turned it off after one episode. However, my younger sister, who knows nothing about the Revolution, enjoyed it intensely and suddenly thought she knew why I'd always been a nut for the era! Meanwhile our oldest sister, who has studied Queen Victoria, was upset by the series VICTORIA and, among other things, the intimation that the young queen had a crush on Lord Melbourne. I only know the outlines of Victoria's life so enjoyed it in happy ignorance.
ReplyDeleteMy takeaway is that one should not read or watch fiction about one's pet subject. (Selden)
I will add, Rhys, that small things don't bother me at all, even when I know quite a bit, and I can't imagine writing to an author to complain!
DeleteI hate when they distort a known historical figure. I am always meticulously accurate with my royals
DeleteAh, yes, the train guys. I found one who was SO happy to share his extensive knowledge about traveling around my corner of New England in 1890 - and I was happy to have him bend my ear over email.
ReplyDeleteI actually welcome readers pointing out a typo - my editor is always willing to fix it in the ebook and in the next print edition.
EDITH: You are the only author I know who lets us readers know that your editor will fix typos in the ebook/next print edition.
DeleteI’ve never asked, Edith. Now I will
DeleteI always figure - if an error can be fixed, why not?
DeleteI agree with Grace. I see so many typos in e-books that I wonder how it got past any kind of editor. These kinds of things would never be allowed in a print book (and none of them have been in your books, Edith!). — Pat S
DeleteI am sure it happens to me sometimes when reading, that something ticks my "Really?" response. I am aware of this ploy, that even though knocking someone out is a good way to incapacitate him, giving him a concussion in every book is just unrealistic. But, I usually trust the author. I know it is fiction.
ReplyDeleteRhys, I am sure that writing historicals leaves you open to the hystericals. But I have never once felt like your books weren't researched for all relevant facts about the era. I would never question you and Clare for accuracy. Also, I read the author's notes at the end of each book where points are frequently clarified. Maybe just consider these complainers to be a part of the job.
Historical-hysterical!!! I love this, Judy
DeleteI just read a book from a local author, whose works, admittedly I don’t really like. I always say to myself – never again! when I finish a book. However, this particular book was supposedly set in my home town in the time that I grew up there. It was so wrong – the number of people in the population, the weather, the number of businesses in town, and the proximity to the next place, not to mention what happened in that time. For instance, she was always having people pop into the next town by car (few people had cars and they didn’t pop into anywhere if they did) for a movie or a take-out. Not likely. Sometimes they went out for supper in this town (there was 1 cockroach infested eatery – most did not). Then there was the industry, and more importantly the historical park – all foolishness. Everytime she repeated the name of this town, my blood would boil, and I lost interest in the plot – which was ‘sucky’. Everyone lived happily ever after.
ReplyDeleteA few weeks ago, she asked for a group of local people to come together with her and tell her stories of a local no-longer inhabited island. She is planning to write a story about it including the shipwrecks. It was obvious that she had no idea of the norms of her planned time-line possibly 20’s to 50’s – “what they did not have power (no lines) and running water (it would have been a well at best), and they had to leave the island in the middle of labour, by boat, to find transportation to get to the relay station to flag the train to get to the next town to have a baby? (Hospital is in another city now). Have you never heard of women helping women?
I feel I will not be reading this one…
How infuriating!
DeleteI can always tell when a writer hasn’t actually been to a place or only taken a quick tour
just minor pet peeves
ReplyDeleteFrom Celia: You have my sympathies Rhys, it must be hard d to be patient with all the complainers. However I can support the London to Paris air travel as it flew that route in 1967. I know I have my pet peeves both on paper as well as TV. But I do try to recognize where the fiction is only fiction. I’m always amused by the speed of recovery from gunshot wounds, stabbing etc etc written about. Definitely not real.
ReplyDeleteThe woman knew the route existed but complained air travel was too expensive for ordinary people. Going out to take a job with ABC I wouldn’t have wanted to take two months on a ship so I flew
DeleteI don't watch much TV, except for Canada's national news broadcast, so my pet peeves usually don't come up.
ReplyDeleteOK. Watching the new Star Trek shows: I do have to suspend disbelief when some implausible method is used to save the day (again). And as a lifelong Trekkie, I do wince when some long-established canon is changed in the new shows.
When I am reading an ARC, I am sometimes taken out of the story when a character's name or place name changes within the story. I make a note, and keep on reading.
It is fiction, and I only notice something if it's so blatant that it pulls me out of the story. However, if the story deals with something with which I'm familiar, oh yeah, the details matter! Please don't mess up the archaeology!
ReplyDeleteTypos happen, even after many eyes have scoured a manuscript. That's great that your editor can fix them in ebooks, Edith.
ReplyDeleteThere are so many ways now for historical events to be portrayed, in fiction, that it seems odd for readers or viewers to insist on absolute accuracy. For instance, the TV show The Great, about the Russian aristocracy, cannot possibly be accurate, it's so over the top and almost whimsical (in an almost X-rated way). I had to stop watching it, but it wasn't because of the anachronisms.
I appreciate how you and Clare strive for authenticity, Rhys. It makes reading your books easier, because out-of-sync locales or situations don't pull the reader out of the story. That should probably be the goal of a fiction writer, don't you think? Avoid distracting the reader, unless you want her distracted to avoid seeing a clue.
I am a fact checker by nature, and my son is a train geek, so I know how particular they can be! If you want to know about SD-70s, SD-40-2s or E8s, ask him. When he was little, he had names for different kinds of locomotives, happy, sleepy, grumpity, making knott==kind of like the 7 dwarves of engines. I have never written an email to an author about a factual error in a work of fiction, and wouldn't, although errors bother me. I am so with you about the concussions. So many of these protagonists should be disabled after the amount of trauma they've experienced.
ReplyDeleteI wrote an email once to Washington Post columnist David Von Drehle with a gentle correction. He had written a beautiful column appreciating Beverly Cleary after her death, but had described the area where Beezus, Ramona and Henry lived as a suburb. My mom grew up in the area at the same time as Beverly Cleary. The neighborhood was established in the late 1910s and early '20s. It's an old Portland neighborhood. I praised him for his piece and suggested that he got the one word wrong. He was very nice in his reply, but wouldn't back down. I still feel a bit frustrated. Dang it, I am right about this. My mom grew up near 57/Klickitat. I visited my grandparents there. I live a mile from there now. Not the suburbs!
Definitely not the suburbs Gillian! The suburbs of Portland would be outside of the City like West Linn, Lake Oswego and more. Klickitat Street is definitely in the city of Portland. It is one of the nicest neighborhoods too.
DeleteExactly, anonymous!
DeleteHe’s a man. Men are never wrong!
DeleteRhys - still laughing! Yes men are never wrong especially if a woman points out their mistake. LOL!!!
DeleteGillian, my daughter went to Reed College in SE Pdx and now lives with her hub and family also about a mile from Klickitat St. around Sherman St. not too far from my fav coffee shop (when I visit) called Little T (on Division). Do you know it?
I gloss over typos, but I'm a stickler for accuracy if the locale or time period is relied on for plot or character in the book. I appreciate every effort the author makes to invent a great story but please don't invent 'facts' for places or products that are real.
ReplyDeleteAmanda, have you ever watched Murdoch Mysteries? Every episode includes mangled history.
DeleteYes, but it is so comical how they work historical figures into a story line. And all of William's 'inventions'! Cracks me up. It's purely entertainment; I can always use a laugh.
DeleteI just finished a very good book about a midwife in the 1700s. Yet the thing I will never forget is that she delivers the babies, cuts the cord, and THEN tied it off. Maybe things were different then? I can’t imagine
ReplyDeleteTypos I read fluently.
Grammar and punctuation errors I can deal with,
Even dangling participles or incomplete sentence.
But when I have to reread a sentence to glean the meaning, I get irritated.
However I’ve never once written the author to complain. The book is published. It won’t get rewritten.
If I could write my own book, I would. But I prefer to read yours
I’m no doctor but isn’t there risk of bleeding if you cut something before tying it?
DeleteMais oui
DeleteOne of the things I love about your books, Rhys, is the attention to detail. You get those details right!
ReplyDeleteI know what you mean about realism! I’m not an expert on police work but after attending the Writers’ Police Academy I cringe at TV cop shows that get basic stuff wrong: Cops who don’t search closets when clearing a house/room, cops who don’t use gloves at crime scenes, instant lab/DNA tests, etc. My WIP is about a deputy sheriff and when I’m uncertain about police procedure, I ask a cop!
I've noticed that British tv police/detective shows tend to have the police use gloves, shoe covers, head covers etc much more than American tv shows.
DeleteThis is a reason I like historical settings. I don’t have to keep up with modern police methods!
DeleteI confess that, as a reader, I have LOTS of pet peeves... but one that bugged me all out of proportion was the heroine of a historical novel referring to her future grandchildren as her "ancestors." No no no!
ReplyDeleteLinda, that is so obvious to most people, I guess the author and the editor where asleep at the wheel.
DeleteI love to read and have only contacted an author a couple times to ask a question. The main thing I notice, which doesn’t happen too often, is when a character’s name is wrong. But I just swap it out in my mind and keep on reading. I did email Stuart Woods once to ask what happened to the owner of Elaine’s in NYC, and he replied “Google it”, ha ha.
ReplyDeleteI haven’t gotten any snippy letters - yet. It’s a matter of time, I’m sure.
ReplyDeleteThe door thing gets me. That and kicking one open. On the first try. No way.
(This is Liz Milliron, by the way. I’m on my iPad and even though I’m in Chrome, Blogger won’t let me sign in.)
From Diana: Fiction is fiction, in my opinion. Even if the book or tv gets it “wrong”, I tell myself that it is FICTION. Typos are another story. I know it is the Editor, not the Author. When I got the ARC, I would let the author know via email if I saw typos. Or if there were two different names for the same person, which can throw me off as a reader.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do have a pet peeve. There were several television episodes and movies where they have a Hearing Actor play a Deaf Character. Now I am seeing some improvement. We see deaf actors like Matlin from West Wing who Always had a Sign Language interpreter with her and the viewers would see the interpreter working with Matlin’s character.
For every deaf person who can speak and lip read (either lost their hearing after age 5 or have some residual hearing or work very hard 24/7), there are other deaf people who cannot do either. For me, when I lipread, it feels more like telepathy to me because it never fails to amaze me that I can underrating what the other person is saying. I was very observant of people before I lost my hearing.
Just my opinion here.
I feel it’s a matter of respect, Diana. Like having a white actor play an Asian. There are Asian actors. There are deaf actors and only they know the nuances
DeleteI do sometimes google things to fact check and usually end up learning something. I hate typos and other mechanical type errors. I don’t recall running across so many back in the day and often wonder why they seem to be so much more prolific in recent times. I doubt if I would write the author about such things.
ReplyDeleteI suppose long ago print was set with actual letters. Not it’s easier to gloss over
DeleteI do get a little annoyed when I see a number of grammar or spelling errors. But this is rare. I once picked up a book written by one of my favorite contemporary mystery writers and the publisher mentioned who the killer was in the summary on the back cover of the book!! Seriously who does that! I did write the author and she was very kind and sent me a copy of her upcoming book which hadn't been released yet and a nice hand written letter.
ReplyDeleteI don't pay attention to story details but there is one writer who often makes a lot of mistakes that she never catches and neither does her editor. It is more mistakes that the main character does that a normal person wouldn't do.
My husband reads non-fiction naval war history and he occasionally finds factual errors. He has written the author when this happens and always receives a nice response and soon after an ongoing correspondence thru email.
I get yo read back copy and would not allow a spoiler. Shame on them
DeleteGrammar and spelling errors and calling characters by the wrong name are my crazy makers. The wrong name thing drives me back pages and pages to make sure I’ve not misremembered. But taking liberties with dates in historical fiction.. no problem. Two of my favorite authors in their “author’s notes” point out when they have done this to move the story coherently. The coherent story is the goodness of fiction. So no, Rhys, I would not care if a dueling pistol didn’t have bullets. What I would care about is Constable Evans solving the murder. Elisabeth
ReplyDeleteIn some gay detective stories an individual person is often referred to as "they". This is so confusing when I read, "They went into the store alone late at night." Wait, who is the other person and if there is another person why are they "alone". I have to go back several pages to see who this other (they) person is.
ReplyDeleteDrives me crazy. If we need to invent another pronoun invent one but not a plural
DeleteYes!! Another pronoun, please!
DeleteI'm sure I've found facts,in historical fiction that I question but without actual proof the fact is wrong, I would never write to the author. Its fiction. I did purchase a book once, through Amazon but didn't read for months. I found it was missing about ten pages. Too late for a return per Amazon's policies but before I purchased an E-version I checked in with customer service. Asking if all the pages were there. I waited awhile before the rep came back and said all the pages were there. Whether he actually looked or not, I don't know but the e-book was correct. I did suggest they check the print version on their shelves just in case other books were missing pages.
ReplyDeleteOh, Rhys, how wonderful. I do tend to notice if something is glaringly wrong, but I would never write the author. Writing is too hard, and yes, it is fiction. As for your Molly books. I grew up in the shadow of NYC. Many times I have walked from the Port Authority Bus Terminal to Central Park and then down to Greenwich Village. It's very doable, and what teenagers did when the subway fare seemed like too much of an expense! I love the Molly settings. They are very believable.
ReplyDeleteAs an author, one of my diving mysteries had my heroine perform an emergency ascent from 120 feet breathing from the bottle. I received correspondence from several 'experts' telling me it was impossible. I don't know if they teach the skill these days, but they did when I learned to dive, and it was with great satisfaction that I was able to reply that I had made that exact ascent from that exact depth when my regulator malfunctioned!
Good for you! And I once walked from the Met to 23 rd Street where I was staying
DeleteNYC was a wonderful walking/gawking city, especially in the older areas.
DeleteOh, snippy letters, yes. Clare couldn't afford her Shelby. I got some vehicle's horsepower wrong. I gave the diocesan archdeacon a purple shirt - that really was a big goof, since purple is reserved for bishops. Sometimes, like Rhys, I want to say, "It's just a story, dammit!"
ReplyDeleteBut I understand why it's so important to get things right. We all suspend our disbelief, and in the hands of a good writer, we sink into what John Gardner called 'the fictional dream.' When you come across something you know just is not so, it jerks us out of the dream and all of a sudden that disbelief comes crashing to the floor.
I only write contemporary mysteries, and I do try to be accurate about a place when I've named it and it's real. Making errors of my own is bad enough, but my publisher managed to misspell the name of my protagonist on the flyleaf of the new cover, even though the first words of my text spelled, her name correctly in the book! Not that many people noticed, but, yes, a few first readers did and it made me so irritated.
ReplyDeletePat D: my husband does a running commentary on uniforms, guns, etc. when a TV show gets them wrong. As for me I get really pissy when I watch shows about Texas history. There was a miniseries on maybe ten years ago that got so much wrong it was almost laughable. My son and I will joke about going to check out those boulders and caves by the San Jacinto battlefield. No, the entire state is not a cactus studded desert. No, there aren't canyons right outside of Houston. Aaagh!
ReplyDeleteI once read a historical novel set in the 1920s, in which a female character was a graduate of a college that actually did not admit women until about fifty years later. I finished reading the book, but that mistake affected my overall opinion of it.
ReplyDeleteI, too, get annoyed with the characters that are constantly suffering head injuries, yet refuse medical care, and then go chasing after a suspect an hour or so later.
DebRo
My husband went to an all male Ivy League school which is now co-ed. If I borrow one of his sweatshirt, with his grad year printed on it (1965) it's flattering for sure how many ask if I went to to that school. I always say no my husband did and it was an all male college until the mid 1970's. People are surprised that many of the traditional all male Ivy's didn't accept women until fairly recently in the colleges history.
DeleteLawyer here: I can't watch most trials on TV because so often, THAT (whatever "that" is) wouldn't happen. And oh, the acts of malpractice! But one of the things that can drive you nuts in writing contemporary fiction is the weather. Have it rain in NYC on a specific Saturday in, say, 1972, and someone is sure to assure you it was sunny, because they got married that day. And then there's the news. Set a story in the second week of September, 2001, and make no acknowledgement of the twin towers? Only if you get the weather right for September 10th, and mention them in the distance. But if it's some random day in January? Better read the Times for that whole week, just to make sure there wasn't a major fire, or auto crash, or celebrity death that would have been on everyone's lips. It's why I write science fiction. No one argues with the weather on a planet you made up.
ReplyDeleteEllen,
DeleteWeather -- Yes! Years ago we had a post card on our refrigerator door of London with a red double decker bus, Buckingham Palace and bright blue skies and white puffy clouds. Our little neighbor friend who was about 5 at the time and had traveled often to London with her parents, was very insistent that the postcard wasn't London. I asked her why and she said it ALWAYS rains in London and is foggy.
I have mentioned this particular error before, but it still annoys me. It appeared in an historical novel in which there is a world-renowned musician who is playing the piano in a nightclub in Paris. He could, conceivably, have appeared in that time period as he was performing and composing in Paris during the general time frame. The musician was an actual person who died of a brain tumor five years before he was supposed to be playing in the nightclub. If I, as an average reader, noticed this glaring mistake-and I did check to see if I remembered the right date. I don’t see how it could have been overlooked by the people who are supposed to catch these errors.
ReplyDeleteEven though it was fiction, she was writing about an actual time in an actual place and using people who really existed. I couldn’t continue reading the book because I didn’t feel I could trust the reliability of the author.
I also have issues with continuity mistakes when the time of day or season changes or they go from appetizers to coffee from one chapter to the next and the characters are still in the same place.
My husband was in the US Navy as a JAG officer (the Navy's legal dept) when JAG the popular TV show first aired. He wrote the director about the numerous mistakes about the medals on the actor's pockets, shirts with the insignias indicating what ranks they were, were incorrect, the hats were a hoot - some Ensign was wearing a hat only wore by an Admiral! It was a lot of mistakes. He received a letter back asking him if he'd like to join the director in LA on set to discuss Navy protocol. He did and enjoyed meeting the cast and crew members.
ReplyDeleteSo cool!
DeleteI don't send letters to authors, but I will mention it in a review. I try to give authors the benefit of the doubt, especially if it is a plot point that will be resolved later (like the dualling guns). After all, characters can get things wrong and find out the correct information later, especially in a mystery.
ReplyDeleteI just finished a book set in my hometown. Most of the places in the book are fictious, as the author acknowledged at the end. I was okay with that. Any time an author mentioned that they did x or y because they needed to have it for the plot, that goes a long way for me in allowing them to write fiction.
For me, the biggest issue is usually timeline. I don't know why I can follow that but miss a character's eye color changing, but if you are having events happening on a Saturday, and the next day is Wednesday...um, not. Likewise, if characters keep saying "Yesterday, we went to the park" but it was really two days ago, that's going to bug me.
Mark, I caught a couple of instances of those timeline glitches in my WIP today as I do a straight-through paper read of it. "Oops, not yesterday!"
DeleteMy pet peeve is in TV shoes or movies when there is always a parking space large enough to pull into (no parallel parking) right in front of the building where the character is heading. I first noticed this on Dallas back in the 1980s, and still see it regularly.
ReplyDeleteThere's something to be said for writing a fictional setting... no one can argue with you as long as you're consistent about it. But Rhys your books so depend on the authenticity of the time/place. My pet peeve is a minor one - when the author has a large cast of characters and calls them by both their first and last name. It's "Michael frowned...." on one line and "Brown stood..." in the next. Reader thinks it's two characters when it's Michael Brown.
ReplyDeleteI call that "Russian novel syndrome." She's Natalie, she's Natalia, she's Natasha, she's "the Countess." How the hell am I supposed to know they're all the same person?
DeleteLOL! I feel this post, Rhys. This is why I tend to make up fictional places. I don't want the current residents or the local historical societies to come after me if I use a real place and stage an event that hasn't happened in the present or the past. Too much bother.
ReplyDeleteYears ago, my aunt's nephew-in-law went to a man's second floor apartment to warn him to leave his son alone. George did that and got into his car. The man shot out the window, through the car roof and killed George! So most of those people sheltering in or behind cars would probably be shot or killed.
ReplyDeleteI also hate all those explosions and the characters running from them and then just getting up and going on with the show. And why do all the cars blow up? Mannix, Rockford, etc. got hit on the head every other episode so would be zombies now.
I never understand why shows want to have cursing to show realism but never show people doing paperwork which I think more law enforcement, medical people, etc. would do. Not that I want to see people doing paperwork. I did that myself enough!
The breaking down the door with a shoulder on TV shows is one of my major peeves, Rhys! In reality you would have a bunch of guys walking around with dislocated shoulders, and the doors still intact! But your research I always trust. I especially loved the 1968 details in The Rose Arbor!
ReplyDelete